LDraw.org allows third party part in the LDraw Parts Library

[Willy Tschager]

Hi folks,

the LDraw Steering Committee agreed to allow digital parts of third parties in the LDraw Parts Library, which have a counterpart in the real world and are accepted by the LEGO fan community. Such parts are branded as:

* Third party - <part name>

and have to go through the LDraw Parts Tracker for certification. Potential candidates for such parts are for example:

http://www.bigbenbricks.com/
https://www.sbrick.com/

Willy Tschager
on behalf of the LDraw Steering Committee

[Willy Tschager]

Hi,

I was asked if third party means also MB or any on the Communist LEGO list? Just let me clear that we do not open to clones but to bricks manufactured by third parties, who's bricks you might see on AFOL conventions and the builder using those didn't get banned immediately :-)

Furthermore we do not except custom bricks which either exist only in the digital world or do not have a widespread use such as bricks from a 3D printer used by you and your LUG.

Willy Tschager
on behalf of the LDraw Steering Committee

[Damien Roux]

This wasn't supposed to be a 1st of April fool?

[Max Martin Richter]

This wasn't supposed to be a 1st of April fool?

Nope, it wasn't supposed as April fool. It's real.

/Max

[Damien Roux]

I though you were talking about that.

[Merlijn Wissink]

I don't know what to think of this. I mean, what's the use of this? I can't think of any 'widely' used unofficial part besides the sBrick.
And the L in LDraw stands for Lego right?

What's the use of making third party parts 'official'?

[Philippe Hurbain]

I don't know what to think of this. I mean, what's the use of this? I can't think of any 'widely' used unofficial part besides the sBrick.

To name a few:
- Hitechnic and Mindsensors Mindstorms sensors and actuators
- Firgelli motorized linear actuator (Mindstorms)
- Rotacaster omniwheel
- Brickarms/Brickforge/Brickwarriors minifig accessories (and probably many other!!!)
- Big Ben train stuff

And the L in LDraw stands for Lego right?

Exactly. "for LEGO"

What's the use of making third party parts 'official'?

To get something reliable for this kind of stuff, to have one centralized placed for LDraw parts.

[Lenard Pasztor]

Dear Willy,

Thank you!
We're really happy that SBrick Plus and SBrick can become available on LDraw.
Luckily from the outside both bricks are identical, so the SBrick Plus and SBrick can only be differentiated by colour. By default, SBrick will be grey with a yellow LED. SBrick Plus will be white with a blue LED. If it's simpler for us to provide only 1 3D, let me know.

The timiing on this couldn't be better as we have just entered the 2nd week of our Kickstarter campaign for SBrick Plus. 
This annoucement will lead our weekly Backer update on Friday, where we will also invite whomever wishes to create models for SBrick Plus and SBrick to contact us at [email protected]. All of these models will be created using LDraw.

Thank you again for letting us be part of the LDraw family. 
Yours,
Lenard

[Rolf Osterthun]

Hey,

this is not the first time I think about the possibility to share also non official LEGO parts via LDraw files. From my point of view there are a lot of advantages. The biggest is that you can share your models in digital form.

But in my opinion there should be a clear border; there should be only one official LEGO library.


I think that the situation can be resolved by defining a new meta command that tells the software what library was used to create a model. It is still possible to build models with only the LEGO library but it is also possible to link to third party libraries. The meta command could contain the name of the library, its version and the location where you can download it.

For example:

Code:

0 !LIBRARY Official 1502 http://www.ldraw.org/library/updates/complete1502.zip
0 !LIBRARY Unofficial 20161019133106 http://www.ldraw.org/library/unofficial/ldrawunf.zip
0 !LIBRARY SBrick 1.0 http://www.ldraw.org/library/thirdparty/sbrick_v1.0.zip
0 !LIBRARY LDD 2488 http://www.digital-bricks.de/download/primitives2488.zip

When there are parts that are not produced by LEGO but should be supported officially by LDraw it would be possible to provide an additional download location on the official LDraw web page. The parts can go through the parts tracker but will end up in a separate lib.

This is not conclusively thought through (the web pages needs to be available all the time, the download locations are not allowed to change, file naming conventions, …)! Just an idea.


Rolf

[Philippe Hurbain]

Currently working on Buwizz brick... Any suggestions for part header and for file naming?

[Philippe Hurbain]

Currently working on Buwizz brick... Any suggestions for part header and for file naming?

Had a try... please have a look! http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cg...335c01.dat

[Travis Cobbs]

Currently working on Buwizz brick... Any suggestions for part header and for file naming?

Had a try... please have a look! http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cg...335c01.dat

Is this the first 3rd-party part on the tracker since this was announced?

[Philippe Hurbain]

Is this the first 3rd-party part on the tracker since this was announced?

AFAIK, yes...
Edit: Actually there were in the past some NXT sensors made by Hitechnic (eg. http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptscan.cgi?q=ms1038). But they were sold by LEGO so their status was a bit different.

[Merlijn Wissink]

Is this the first 3rd-party part on the tracker since this was announced?

AFAIK, yes...

The Sbrick was never made an 'official' part?

[Philippe Hurbain]

AFAIK, yes...

The Sbrick was never made an 'official' part?

No. I made it and it's available on Sbrick website, but not submitted to PT so far (this was not possible at the time). I'll clean it up and put on PT when everybody agrees on the way it should be done.

[Tore Eriksson]

Hi,

I was asked if third party means also MB or any on the Communist LEGO list? Just let me clear that we do not open to clones but to bricks manufactured by third parties, who's bricks you might see on AFOL conventions and the builder using those didn't get banned immediately.

That wasn't very clear at all IMO. What makes some parts or brands third party and others clones? Country of origin? Or do the trird parties pay some kind of licence fee to TLG, as opposed to the Chinese? Acceptance on AFOL conventions? As if AFOL conventions is the only measurement of LEGO Canon and Apocrypha, and the voices of vast majority of LEGO fans who cannot afford to attend those conventions don't count? Even if Chinese "Communist" alternatives may be or become much more popular among "non-conventional"  AFOLs with lower incomes?

[Michael Horvath]

IMO there should be separate library(s) for this stuff in principle. But of course that would not be backwards-compatible with old tools.

[Tore Eriksson]

IMO there should be separate library(s) for this stuff in principle. But of course that would not be backwards-compatible with old tools.

The only problem I see with a separate library or folder is that the parts won't be listed by MakeList.
But a unique prefix to the part number, for example t1234.dat or tp1234, would make the files much easier to spot.

[Philippe Hurbain]

But a unique prefix to the part number, for example t1234.dat or tp1234, would make the files much easier to spot.

Yes, I too think it would be a good thing. No such parts have been released so far, so this can easily be done.

[Matt Chambers]

Does this mean that parts that are exclusive to other brands could be added? Like these parts from Cobi:
   
They're compatible with Lego in terms of size, and the SNOT pieces provide flexibility Lego currently doesn't have.

[Philippe Hurbain]

Does this mean that parts that are exclusive to other brands could be added? Like these parts from Cobi:

They're compatible with Lego in terms of size, and the SNOT pieces provide flexibility Lego currently doesn't have.

Sorry, no... See https://forums.ldraw.org/thread-21841-po...l#pid23483
Now this kind of parts are very easy to model and of course nothing prevents you to add them to your own private library!

[Matt Chambers]

Sorry, no... See https://forums.ldraw.org/thread-21841-po...l#pid23483
Now this kind of parts are very easy to model and of course nothing prevents you to add them to your own private library!

No. I made it and it's available on Sbrick website, but not submitted to PT so far (this was not possible at the time). I'll clean it up and put on PT when everybody agrees on the way it should be done.

Is there a difference between the Sbrick-exclusive parts and the Cobi-exclusive parts? Or is there no difference and that's why Sbrick still isn't in PT?

If it was in a private library, can that library be passed along and loaded automatically when viewing an LDraw model?

But why use a private library for publicly available toys? Cobi was chosen by Boeing, a company that makes more profit than Lego makes revenue, to produce its toy brick planes!

[Philippe Hurbain]

Is there a difference between the Sbrick-exclusive parts and the Cobi-exclusive parts? Or is there no difference and that's why Sbrick still isn't in PT?

S-Brick IS on PT: https://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.c...032c01.dat and https://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.c...032c02.dat (BuWizz is available too: https://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.c...001c01.dat)

If it was in a private library, can that library be passed along and loaded automatically when viewing an LDraw model?

Sure. Most LDraw tools can be configured to use several different libraries.

But why use a private library for publicly available toys? Cobi was chosen by Boeing, a company that makes more profit than Lego makes revenue, to produce its toy brick planes!

I won't enter into political/philosophical discussions

[Matt Chambers]

S-Brick IS on PT: 

Ah. Searching for sbrick found nothing. Has to be "s-brick". So why is S-Brick allowed to be "official" but Cobi isn't?

[Matt Chambers]

Ah. Searching for sbrick found nothing. Has to be "s-brick". So why is S-Brick allowed to be "official" but Cobi isn't?

Anyway the ability to add custom parts and use them to build PDF instructions is enough for me (and more than I can do on competing designer systems, e.g. LDD, Stud.io, Mecabricks.com). The Cobi parts library could be shared on Google Drive for that matter. I do love the openness of this LDraw ecosystem, I just hope it eventually opens up a bit about brand loyalty.

[Orion Pobursky]

Ah. Searching for sbrick found nothing. Has to be "s-brick". So why is S-Brick allowed to be "official" but Cobi isn't?

From my perspective the reason is because S-Brick is explicitly made to be used as a supplement for LEGO as opposed to Cobi which is a clone brick brand competing against LEGO. I’m sure you could find some sort of counter argument but at the end of the day it’s on the judgment of Chris Dee, the Library Admin.

[Matt Chambers]

From my perspective the reason is because S-Brick is explicitly made to be used as a supplement for LEGO as opposed to Cobi which is a clone brick brand competing against LEGO. I’m sure you could find some sort of counter argument but at the end of the day it’s on the judgment of Chris Dee, the Library Admin.

Doesn't S-Brick compete against LEGO's remote control solutions?  How do Cobi's studs-on-top-and-bottom bricks compete against LEGO, which has no such bricks?

Perhaps the distinction is that S-Brick competes against LEGO in a very limited way whereas Cobi competes in a quite broad way (they produce many of the same brick shapes, only a few exclusive ones). But I'm only suggesting for (currently) exclusive bricks to be added (it would be silly to duplicate parts for each clone brand when they are meant to be interchangeable).

[Travis Cobbs]

If it was in a private library, can that library be passed along and loaded automatically when viewing an LDraw model?

In addition to what Philo already said, you can also use an MPD tool to embed the local custom parts into an MPD, so that if you share that MPD, everyone can see the parts as intended. This has the advantage of making it work for everybody, not just people who have installed the custom library.

[Eugen]

Such parts are branded as:

* Third party - <part name>

and have to go through the LDraw Parts Tracker for certification.

Technical question:

Should be there special Studs without Logo shortcuts/subset parts (primitives) to be used for Third Party parts studs, so if sotware (even old/unmaintained) would be turned to show LEGO logos on studs, such logo would not appear on Third Party parts studs?

The same should be also used for the high constrast studs in Third Party parts studs.

For maintained software, it might be easy to add a rule to not show logos on studs with "!CATEGORY Third party" or with the name prefixed with "|" (logos should not appear on Helper parts either).

1. https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primitives_R...thout_Logo
   
2. https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Studs_with_Logo
   

[Gerald Lasser]

Technical question:

Should be there special Studs without Logo shortcuts/subset parts (primitives) to be used for Third Party parts studs, so if sotware (even old/unmaintained) would be turned to show LEGO logos on studs, such logo would not appear on Third Party parts studs?

The same should be also used for the high constrast studs in Third Party parts studs.

For maintained software, it might be easy to add a rule to not show logos on studs with "!CATEGORY Third party" or with the name prefixed with "|" (logos should not appear on Helper parts either).

1. https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primitves_Re...thout_Logo
   
2. https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Studs_witt_Logo
   

There is, it is stud26

Your links are not working

[Eugen]

Your links are not working

Fixed links in my comment.

There is, it is stud26

Thanks for pointing.

But there are few cases that various software may not rule out for Third Party parts with "stud26.dat":

1. When in sotware its enable to show "Thin Lines" logo on sharp stud (stud-logo.dat), its expected for Third Party stud top edge would be sharp (i.e., stud26.dat) — its work in LeoCAD as expected.
   
2. When in software its enabled to show studs with a "Outlined"/"Sharp Top"/"Rounded Top"/"Flattened" (stud-logo2.dat, stud-logo3.dat, stud-logo4.dat, stud-logo5.dat accrodingly) logo, its expected that Third Party studs top edge would be rounded — this does not work in LeoCAD.
   
   1. The same for open/hollow studs in Third Party parts, as there is no open/hollow stud with rounded top edge but without logo to be used in Third Party parts.
3. When in software enabled to show "Hight Contrast" or "Hight Contrast with Logo" studs, its expected for Third Party high contrast stud (without logo in both cases) would be used too — this does not work in LeoCAD.
   

Screenshots (left part is a normal brick 3005 part, and right part is a modified according to Third Party part design style).

   

   

   

[Gerald Lasser]

ad 2 "When in software its enabled to show studs with a "Outlined"/"Sharp Top"/"Rounded Top"/"Flattened"..."

I have no clue how LEOCAD renders this softened edge, there is no stud like this in the library, so it seems to me that this is a LEOCAD function that LEOCAD needs to address.


ad 3 "When in software enabled to show "Hight Contrast" or "Hight Contrast with Logo"..."

There are only three studs with high-contrast in the library, stud, stud2 and stud20
I don't know how LEOCAD works/is supposed to work, respectively how it replaces studs with the high-contrast versions, you could add a stud26-high-contrast to see if this addressed your issue.

[Willy Tschager]

But there are few cases that various software may not rule out for Third Party parts with "stud26.dat":

This has to be addressed to the programmer of LeoCAD. It's not that the tail wags the dog.

w.

[Eugen]

I have no clue how LEOCAD renders this softened edge, there is no stud like this in the library, so it seems to me that this is a LEOCAD function that LEOCAD needs to address.

"there is no stud like this in the library",— it is in the library, see "stud-logo2.dat", "stud-logo3.dat", "stud-logo4.dat" and "stud-logo5.dat" (for softened edges open/hollow studs there are "stud2-logo2.dat", "stud2-logo3.dat", "stud2-logo4.dat" and "stud2-logo5.dat" as well).

And LeoCAD just uses these studs from library to substitute "stud.dat" in normal parts (for Third Party parts only "stud26.dat" is used in all of the cases).

There are only three studs with high-contrast in the library, stud, stud2 and stud20
I don't know how LEOCAD works/is supposed to work, respectively how it replaces studs with the high-contrast versions, you could add a stud26-high-contrast to see if this addressed your issue.

Adding "stud26-high-contrast.dat" has no effect. I will report this issue on LeoCAD issues tracker.

Also found that "High Contrast" studs are not documented in "Primiteves Reference" on Wiki yet: https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primiteves_Reference
Only "stud-high-contrast.dat" and "stud2-high-contrast.dat" are mentioned in a separate Tutorial page https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Studs_with_Logos
(and all of the "High Contrast" studs also are not in official library yet: https://library.ldraw.org/tracker/29638)

This has to be addressed to the programmer of LeoCAD. It's not that the tail wags the dog.

Yes, it would be reported to LeoCAD developer (and some of LeoCAD's issue related to Third Party parts already reported).

I just highlighted that Third Party parts could be not fully backward compatible with the previosly released third party sotware for LDraw.

[Willy Tschager]

Also found that "High Contrast" studs are not documented in "Primiteves Reference" on Wiki yet: https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primiteves_Reference
Only "stud-high-contrast.dat" and "stud2-high-contrast.dat" are mentioned in a separate Tutorial page https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Studs_with_Logos
(and all of the "High Contrast" studs also are not in official library yet: https://library.ldraw.org/tracker/29638)

The primref documents exclusively prims in the wild.

w.

[Gerald Lasser]

"there is no stud like this in the library",— it is in the library, see "stud-logo2.dat", "stud-logo3.dat", "stud-logo4.dat" and "stud-logo5.dat" (for softened edges open/hollow studs there are "stud2-logo2.dat", "stud2-logo3.dat", "stud2-logo4.dat" and "stud2-logo5.dat" as well).

And LeoCAD just uses these studs from library to substitute "stud.dat" in normal parts (for Third Party parts only "stud26.dat" is used in all of the cases).

Indeed, they are in the library, nevertheless, it is up to the editor/renderer to make use of them

[Orion Pobursky]

As a library we are only minimally concerned with stud logos. The logo/high contrast studs are never used in library parts and are there only for advanced users or program developers.

[Eugen]

As a library we are only minimally concerned with stud logos. The logo/high contrast studs are never used in library parts and are there only for advanced users or program developers.

Anyway, would be good to add a note that for Third Party parts "stud26.dat" should be substituted with "stud-high-contrast.dat", same way as "stud.dat" is substituted in official parts.

[Willy Tschager]

Reading through the "Third party" discussion I would add that back in the days we allowed such stuff 'cos people were making it and we wanted to make sure users get a full experience.

But making a request for a third party part, dragging time and energy from the never ending list of LEGO parts not yet in the library and a PT with some 8000 files waiting for a CERT is a bold move.

Bottom line: If you don't have the skills to make the part yourself, don't ask for it.

w.

[Peter Blomberg]

the LDraw Steering Committee agreed to allow digital parts of third parties in the LDraw Parts Library, which have a counterpart in the real world and are accepted by the LEGO fan community.

LDraw is the largest public source of digital LEGO parts and used by a vast array of software. Many software are dependent on it, even stud.io.

AFAIK, LDraw hosts two libraries: the main (aka official parts) library and the parts tracker (aka unofficial parts) library. Certification is painfully slow. It is difficult to become a parts author. The parts author tools are underdeveloped in comparison with parts user tools.

As an amateur MOC creator, I like the idea that LDraw could host part libraries for LEGO-compatible parts (as opposed to having them in private collections). However, I abhor the idea that non-LEGO parts were permitted in the same library (download packages). What if I accidentally made a MOC containing a non-LEGO part? Unacceptable!

It is great that LDraw can host the third-party part libraries, but I would not merge them with the existing two libraries. I would also keep the third-party parts outside the certification process just to save time and effort of the too few parts reviewers.

[Orion Pobursky]

This is why all third party part descriptions begin with "|" and file names start with "t". It easy to setup filters and even if you don't, those two things should clue you in.

[Orion Pobursky]

This will probably cease to be a problem now that we've dramatically raised the bar for inclusion.