Color questions (was: 3816ps5 Minifig Leg Right with SW Gunbelt Pattern)

[Daniel Goerner]

Does anyone know which brown to use for the belt? No brown color I tried fits. How about using custom colors in LDraw files?

[Chris Dee]

Custom (or direct) colours are allowed. See the colours section of the LDraw File Format specification - RGB values using the form 0x2RRGGBB.

[Travis Cobbs]

You might also want to see the Colour Restrictions section of the official parts restrictions document, because direct colours are only allowed for pattern/sticker geometry.

[Chris Dee]

I thought Daniel was asking about pattern colours.

[Travis Cobbs]

He was; I just wanted to make sure he was aware that while they're perfectly legitimate in patterns and stickers, they're not allowed anywhere else in official parts.

[Daniel Goerner]

I'm glad I learned how to make patterns. As of now, i have no intentions in making parts. But thank you anyway.

[Daniel Goerner]

Is it possible to give a custom color a metallic or reflective look? How does LDraw know that a color is reflective?

[Travis Cobbs]

The LDraw.org Colour Definition Language Extension allows various finishes to be declared for a color (like chrome, metallic, etc.). The LDConfig.ldr defines all the official LEGO colors, and uses tags to have them have the right flags set. However, it's up to a rendering program to take action based on those flags.

LDView modifies the specular highlight settings for some of the flags (like rubber and chrome), but this is only visible if specular highlight is enabled in LDView, and it doesn't actually make those colors shiny in the traditional since, because LDView doesn't support reflections.

Since a specific color code is used, though, that code can be defined to have the desired properties in POV-Ray, so if you export to POV-Ray, it's possible to get things set up so that the colors behave approximately like desired.

[Daniel Goerner]

In other words, no.

I can not, let's say, take a custom copper and put in the partfile that this color has a metallic look, so that every user sees the metallic look when he renders it. Did I get that right?

It would be another question if I'd say we need a couple of colors defined in LDConfig that are used for patterns, e.g. the custom brown I used in a couple of patterns, since no other brown color fitted. Or a custom metallic copper to be used in patterns, since the brick copper is too dark.

[Travis Cobbs]

You cannot put a custom color into an official part, no. You're free to put a custom color definition (0 !COLOUR) into an unofficial part, and then use that colour definition inside the part. You'd want to be very careful about the color code you chose, though. LDView improperly makes all custom color definitions global to the entire model. This isn't correct behavior, and may be fixed at some point in the future, but that's the way LDView behaves right now. Additionally, the only finish flags that LDView recognizes are RUBBER, CHROME, and METAL, and what it does with those is frankly somewhat lacking.

If you feel that a new custom color definition is needed in order to model an official part, you can request that it be added to LDConfig.ldr. Once that has been done, you can then use the new color code in an official part.

So unfortunately, I think the basic answer to your question right now is, mostly, no.

[Daniel Goerner]

If you feel that a new custom color definition is needed in order to model an official part, you can request that it be added to LDConfig.ldr.

How, and to whom? Because I actually have such a request:

0 !COLOUR Metallic_Copper CODE 88 VALUE #E8905F EDGE #333333 METAL

As used in:
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=3069bpx10
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=3039px10
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=2431px2

I's a lot brighter than the pearly Copper and also has a metallic finish.

[Scott Wardlaw]

Daniel, I am the administrator for the LDConfig files. Philo alerted me to your post. I try to keep up with posts that have concerns over colors, but don't always see everyone. In the future, please feel free to email me directly, or be sure to include the word LDConfig or color in the title of the post (which you did). My email is LEG0#SC0TTWARDLAW*C0M (you will need to retype - not copy and paste).

Please collect your facts, and present your case for adding a new color and post them here. Currently, I do not see a strong enough case to add a new color.

Thanks,
Scott W.

[Scott Wardlaw]

OK, I've had some email traffic with Daniel on this. Here is a summary and proposal for a better solution:

LDConfig is meant to primarily be a shortcut for colors that exist in real LEGO plastic. It was extended to include colors that exist for purchase on Bricklink, but may not be plastic (such as this piece: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=70496). It also contains some other physical (not a sticker / pattern) colors for completeness. It currently does not contain any colors for the sole purpose of making a sticker / pattern look more realistic. If we started down that path, LDConfig would grow to an unmanageable size and no longer be end-user friendly for choosing colors in MLCAD, Bricksmith, etc.

Therefore, I would like to propose (both as a SteerCo Member and ColorMaster) that a new standard be created to allow Patterned Parts to have custom colors inside the part file:

0 !COLOUR Metallic_Copper CODE 512 VALUE #E8905F EDGE #333333 METAL

The custom color would be required to use a color code in a new range block (say 512 to 1024). A color code in this range would not override any existing color codes. Software Tools would not be required to implement changes, but the standard would suggest that the custom color code would only have scope in the patterned part file.

I have tested this with LDView, which works and displays correctly. I also tested with MLCAD, which displays the part, but complains about it.

Thoughts?

Scott W.

[Allen Smith]

Just for the record, those scoping rules for !COLOUR are quite complicated implement. I took a stab at it and either gave up on local colors or implemented colors that never go out of scope in the model. I can't remember which.

It's also not possible to encode shininess into textures directly, so introducing new !COLOURs specifically for pattern shine is not necessarily future-proof.

Allen

[Roland Melkert]

I pretty much did the same in LDCad Although the issue is on my 'to improve' list.

[Travis Cobbs]

Since stickers and patterns are allowed to use RGB colors, it seems to me that only the special colors (like this metalic one) would need LDConfig.ldr treatment, and I wouldn't expect there to be all that many special ones.

One known bug in LDView is that all !COLOUR commands are global to the entire model. (I believe that the last one loaded "wins".) This obviously shouldn't be a reason to avoid using !COLOUR in sub-files, but it is something to be aware of, since the potential for conflicts goes way up. However, if we decide to go this route, I'd want to know about it before releasing LDView 4.2, since it's definitely something I'd have to then fix. I haven't fixed it before now due to the fact that nobody has ever noticed that it's broken in the first place, so it just didn't get high enough on my priority list. (The fix isn't exactly trivial, since I have to add fully scoped color tracking, where now I have a single global color palette.)

[Travis Cobbs]

I got side-tracked on something else while composing my reply below, so didn't see these other replies before posting my own. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who chose to punt on this issue.

[Daniel Goerner]

Since stickers and patterns are allowed to use RGB colors, it seems to me that only the special colors (like this metalic one) would need LDConfig.ldr treatment, and I wouldn't expect there to be all that many special ones.

That was exactly my point when I asked to add this color to LDConfig in the first place. It's all about the metallic finish. All other colors are easily done with RGB Codes.

The code need to be corrected. With the Help of Rolf I now got the LDD Patterns and now I have the RGB-Code for the metallic-copper from LDD:

0 !COLOUR Metallic_Copper CODE 512 VALUE #EB8845 EDGE #333333 METAL

So this would be the correct VALUE to use.

But no matter what solution you choose, thanks for caring.

[Daniel Goerner]

Why is it that some parts like 3626bp7a say "Brown Hair" but when I use the the part in MLCad the hair is color 16? Same with 3039ps1 where parts of the pattern should be metallic gold...

[Nils Schmidt]

MLCad and LeoCAD do not parse LDConfig.ldr as far as I know.
As a result, a few patterns look very different in these programs.
Even the parts tracker do not use the defined colours in some renderings (e.g. http://www.ldraw.org/library/official/im...973pb0.png).

[Philippe Hurbain]

MLCad and LeoCAD do not parse LDConfig.ldr as far as I know.

MLCad does since version 3.3 (http://news.lugnet.com/cad/mlcad/?n=2297)

[Travis Cobbs]

As far as I know, the parts tracker does use LDConfig.ldr for its renderings, but it may not use an up-to-date copy of the file.

[Chris Dee]

The Parts Tracker does use LDConfig.ldr, and should be using the current version. If you have contrary evidence I'll check into it.

[Travis Cobbs]

I just realized that the image you posted of 973pb0 isn't from the parts tracker. I'm not sure where the official library images come from these days.

[Daniel Goerner]

Any progress in finding a solution?

[Travis Cobbs]

Unless there is an official policy change stating that custom colors should be defined inside patterned parts, I'm not even going to look at it in LDView. I know that fixing this problem is a big undertaking, which is why I haven't fixed it before now, even though I've known about the problem for a long time. I'm not going to devote the time necessary for a fix unless it is clearly needed.

Note: I don't have a problem in principal with Scott's suggestion of putting the color definitions inside the pattern sub-parts, so if other people agree with him that this is the proper thing to do, and the LSC agrees, I'll go along with the decision, and then endeavor to update LDView. However, since three different software authors (including myself) have already piped in to say that they don't support proper scoping of colors, and I don't think anyone has tested MLCad's behavior, it could well be that it's not the right thing to do solely because the tools just don't support it.

My preference would be to allow pattern-specific colors to be placed in LDConfig.ldr when those colors have a special finish, and only when they have a special finish.

[Scott Wardlaw]

Easy way out it is then.

I still have not seen sufficient evidence that one of the existing colors in LDconfig isn't good enough for this. I'll accept renders of the part with the closest matching colors in LDconfig for evidence (for or against adding a new color to LDconfig). Based on those renders, we can either add a new color, or slightly tweak the existing color(s) to better meet your needs, but still represent the associated color(s).

Thanks,
Scott W.

[Daniel Goerner]

Original part, Metallic Copper, Metallic Gold (which you suggested as alternative, but looks totally wrong)

[Scott Wardlaw]

From these renders, it looks like the background colors (the Dark_Gray plastic and the Copper plastic) also don't match exactly. I have spent a great deal of time matching Dark_Gray as close as possible to the the real color, so I suspect that either the picture does not have a good white balance set, the part is using Dark_Bluish_Gray, or the render does not have good light settings. Any one of these can effect the patterned colors in question.

I can't say that I've spent much time matching Copper exactly, so I can't speak to why the render isn't matching. However, I have attached some screen shots from MLCad, LDView, and POV-Ray of part 553ps2, and they all have a better matching Copper. I've also attached the latest LDConfig that I am using for these renders.

I could not find the 553pb01 part, so I could not experiment with the existing colors. If you send me your part file, I will do that and see if we can find something that works.

Sorry this is such a PITA, but hopefully, we can get solution soon.

Thanks,
Scott W.

[Steffen]

I don't feel this being a PITA at all. It's the opposite: the careful color adjusting and all the tedious work
that everybody here puts into this is greatly, greatly appreciated. The topic is difficult, and it takes
a caring mind to tackle it. Thank you!

[Daniel Goerner]

The renders aren't matching because I used lgeo with a custom lg_color.inc, which is based on the original TLG RGB values (that is what I've been told). You can find it here (Page 5 first posting).
But I don't get what you are trying to do here. Why tweak the existing copper? It's alright as it is. It's just useless for patterns since it has a pearl finish and is too dark. A lighter color with a metallic finish is needed here.

[Scott Wardlaw]

DO NOT use lgeo colors to determine if your parts look right!!! LDConfig is the official color set for making instructions, and LDConfig_Alt is the official color set for rendering. Certainly not all of the colors are exactly correct in lgeo and not all are correct in LDConfig, but I take all requests to update color values seriously and spend a great deal of time continuously improving color values and adding new colors.

After looking through real parts and pictures of real parts, I found that the color Metallic Gold is the color that you want for 553pb01. LDConfig did not have a good match for this color, which is why you objected to it earlier. Metallics and Pearls are the hardest to match, since they look different at different angles, in different lights, etc. Fortunately, a good picture of a metallic gold part was recently added, which allowed me to better match the color: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=95676

I've attached a picture comparing MLCad, LDView, and POV-Ray; as well as the updated LDConfig and LDConfig_Alt used to make these renders.

Please feel free to email me future color change requests, and always try to base your color choices off of real parts / real pictures. Bricklink does a fairly good job of categorizing parts by color: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogColors.asp

Thanks,
Scott W.

[Steffen]

Hello Scott, just being curious, I have compared LDConfig.ldr vs LDCfgalt.ldr colors (only part colors,
not edge colors) and was surprised: I expected "many" differences or "none", but what I found was just "few":

"Lime": #A5D426 vs #BBE90B
"Rust": #A52D0A vs #B31004
"Trans_Bright_Green": #56E646 vs #D9E4A7
"Trans_Green": #237841 vs #84B68D
"Glitter_Trans_Clear": #FCFCFC vs #FFFFFF
"Rubber_Yellow": #ECC935 vs #F5CD2F

That's all. Especially for rubber yellow I wonder why there's a difference, since Rubber_Blue, Rubber_White etc. have no such difference. Are all these (few) differences by intention? As said, just curious.

I had never used LDCfgalt.ldr at all, just use LDConfig.ldr, even for rendering, and am happy with that.
Again, just being curious, which rendering programs use the edge colors setup in LDCfgalt.ldr? Why would one need such?
All my photorealistic renders with POVRay just use the main body color, not the edge color.

[Daniel Goerner]

It's still too yellow.
But okay, you don't want to add a new color, so be it.