Updating the Prim Ref page

[Willy Tschager]

Hi,

I guess you have experienced by yourself that the LDraw Primitives Reference is pretty outdate by now and should be fixed. I see this as a collaborative effort, where all authors should help in an update. No time constraints though - it has been like this for several years now and a month or two or three more doesn't change a thing.
The question is how do we tackle this so that the work isn't loaded on the shoulders of one person only.

* Wiki
* A Google Doc
* Forums
* Any other suggestion

Have your say.

w.

[Vincent Messenet]

IMHO a Wiki sounds good for this type of documentation and especially with the collaborative approach this project deserve.

Additionally a shared Google Sheet could be useful to prepare the work, split the charge in tasks, assign tasks over multiple people and track the progress.

The approach could be to:

1. List all prims to be documented and distribute them per category of prims
   
2. Define a template for the Wiki
   
3. Define the first category of prims to tackle and fill in the Wiki page using the template
   
4. If necessary iterate with 2 and 3 until we are satisfied
   
5. Then we can either continue similarly in workgroup category per category until we have addressed all categories
   OREach person participating choose and take care of a category until we have addressed all categories

[Willy Tschager]

Sounds all reasonable. So first step would be getting the wiki back on track.

w.

[Willy Tschager]

Access to wiki has been restored. I created a stump for the page:

https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primitives_Reference

The current thumbs are 200x200. Is this okay with you?

w.

[Philippe Hurbain]

The current thumbs are 200x200. Is this okay with you?

Looks fine on my phone. To be checked on more complex prims, eg. npegholes

[Max Murtazin]

More than enough, maybe even could be scaled down to 150 x 150.

Styling of the page could use some work tho

Also, how do I make an account on the wiki? Using request account throws error:
"Error sending mail:
Unknown error in PHP's mail() function."

[Magnus Forsberg]

This is just a collection of random questions from the top of my head thinking of primitives.

And what is the next step?

Will the wiki page replace the html-page? Is it possible to translate the wiki to a html-page?

The wiki page stump is missing an index in the header/beginning of the page.

Should the list still be limted to show only official primitives? If so, how do we make the unofficial primitives searchable?

Should we ban the creation of 5-16 primitives, and similar? A 5-16 is equal to a 1-16 + 1-4 and not needed/wanted?
What divisions are needed/wanted?

The default orientation doesn't work with the tri prism primitives.

As a metric only user I made this image to help understand the 16th
   

[Orion Pobursky]

Will the wiki page replace the html-page? Is it possible to translate the wiki to a html-page?

I'm leaning towards yes but also have some reservations. It will, however, be fairly easy to translate to the library site. Keeping it in sync, however, is a bit more involved.

[Willy Tschager]

Also, how do I make an account on the wiki? Using request account throws error:
"Error sending mail:
Unknown error in PHP's mail() function."

This might help:

https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:RequestAccount

Orion has switched off account creation to reduce the work of blocking spammers. Let's see if this could work. But bear with me. I'm just doing my first steps into the wiki.

w.

[Willy Tschager]

I refined my batch file for thumbnail creation and uploaded some boxes:

https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles

In case you have a working wiki account feel free to add more boxes copying content from the current primref:

https://www.ldraw.org/library/primref/

w.

[Willy Tschager]

Will the wiki page replace the html-page? Is it possible to translate the wiki to a html-page?

We could also replace the HTML-page with the Wiki - and allow only senior part author to edit it.

The wiki page stump is missing an index in the header/beginning of the page.

It is missing almost everything. I'd say before we tackle formatting lets move the current content from the HTML to the wiki. I do not have much Wiki experience. If you do be my guest.

Should the list still be limted to show only official primitives? If so, how do we make the unofficial primitives searchable?

To be truly useful also unofficial should be added - and properly marked!

w.

[Max Murtazin]

This might help:

https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:RequestAccount

Orion has switched off account creation to reduce the work of blocking spammers. Let's see if this could work. But bear with me. I'm just doing my first steps into the wiki.

w.

"[1df6f72c8676610755ea1a79] 2023-11-26 01:41:37: Fatal exception of type "Error""

[Orion Pobursky]

"[1df6f72c8676610755ea1a79] 2023-11-26 01:41:37: Fatal exception of type "Error""

I found the cause of the error but I haven't found the fix yet.

[Gerald Lasser]

I refined my batch file for thumbnail creation and uploaded some boxes:

https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles

I do like the view point for the prims, that is better for the trixxx prims

[Orion Pobursky]

"[1df6f72c8676610755ea1a79] 2023-11-26 01:41:37: Fatal exception of type "Error""

I think I've fixed the problem.

[Willy Tschager]

The wiki page stump is missing an index in the header/beginning of the page.

I added an index at the top (proper formatting has to be made) and copied some more content. As copy'n'paste usually opens the worm can of errors, I would appreciate it if someone could prove read the list.

w.

[Max Murtazin]

Something is going very wrong with the tables, that's causing most bottom one to bleed into the section going right after

Upd: fixed.
   

[Vincent Messenet]

The current thumbs are 200x200. Is this okay with you?

200x200 looks great to me, not too small and not too big What do you use to generate the thumbs?

I've applied for a Wiki account.

[Willy Tschager]

200x200 looks great to me, not too small and not too big What do you use to generate the thumbs?

A LDView batch file:

http://www.holly-wood.it/ldview-en.html

I'm gonna post it here once I have access to the other computer.

w.

[Orion Pobursky]

For the box primitives, I'd like to see a discussion on how the naming is derived.

Also, maybe a discussion on rotating the rect prims

[Gerald Lasser]

My thoughts

-> first of all, the crosshair colours are wrong (ever since) blue is Z, red is X axis, that need to be brought in line

-> a link to a tutorial for the generation of ciscular prims (especially tori, mixed mode tori)

-> lo-res, Fast Render prims: document them as well? Imho the requirement for the stud2 needs to be documented with a sample imho

-> document depreciated naming (affects some round prims, e.g.  cylc2, cyli2, ccyli)

-> there are some circular prims where the prim substitution is not yet working in LDView: e.g. cylh, edgh

How shall we structure this?
- general geometry
  - rectangular
  - round
    - circle padding and adapters

- studs
  - system/duplo/primo
    - top
    - bottom
    - fillets

- technic
  - tooth
  - npeghol
  - connectors
  - bushes
  - axle holes (including a "how to pad")

- clips and handles

- minifig

- Joints and Hinges
  - Ball joints
  - Rotation joint 2 and 3
  - Click Hinge
  - Hinge

- duplo

- znap

Apart from the prims, may be we shall also document some special subpart, like screws and electrical parts (non Lego parts, lile batteries etc.)

[Willy Tschager]

For the box primitives, I'd like to see a discussion on how the naming is derived.

I don't have the slightest idea.

Also, maybe a discussion on rotating the rect prims

Well, that's easy: Do NOT rotate outside of right angles: 90°, 180 ... on all axes.

w.

[Max Murtazin]

I don't have the slightest idea.

It's a bit convoluted, but, as I get, here's how it goes

First, there is boxN, with N standing for number of faces the box has. Then, there is boxN-M, M standing for number of edges removed.

Then, N and M both can have a letter after them. Each letter stands for how missing faces/edges are placed relative to eachother. Dash in boxN-M removed, if N has a modifier letter

Edge letters:

• p - edges are parallel to eachother
  
• a - missing edges are placed in a way that leave missing face without edges (it's hard to word, more of you know it when you see it)
  

Face letters:

• o - faces are opposite to eachother
  
• t - faces are all touching eachother (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
  
• u - faces missing form a U shape
  

[Willy Tschager]

-> first of all, the crosshair colours are wrong (ever since) blue is Z, red is X axis, that need to be brought in line

Better?

   

w.

[Max Murtazin]

Better?



w.

Could've just edited the old pic

[Willy Tschager]

Could've just edited the old pic

Sure, but when you get the chance to upgrade to a 2.0 version - opening to road to a million of new bugs causing total frustration in your users - you should never hesitate.

w.

[Willy Tschager]

What do you use to generate the thumbs?

Attached the script as well as the LDView settings used.


  LDView_Batch.zip (Size: 1.1 KB / Downloads: 2)

w.

[Willy Tschager]

Apart from the prims, may be we shall also document some special subpart, like screws and electrical parts (non Lego parts, lile batteries etc.)

Screws should be added. What I miss in your list are "logos"

w.

[Willy Tschager]

It's a bit convoluted, but, as I get, here's how it goes

First, there is boxN, with N standing for number of faces the box has. Then, there is boxN-M, M standing for number of edges removed.

Then, N and M both can have a letter after them. Each letter stands for how missing faces/edges are placed relative to eachother. Dash in boxN-M removed, if N has a modifier letter

Edge letters:

• p - edges are parallel to eachother
  
• a - missing edges are placed in a way that leave missing face without edges (it's hard to word, more of you know it when you see it)
  

Face letters:

• o - faces are opposite to eachother
  
• t - faces are all touching eachother (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
  
• u - faces missing form a U shape
  

Is this correct? I never cared about the naming. They were always there and for the rest Chris cared about.

w.

[Max Murtazin]

Is this correct? I never cared about the naming. They were always there and for the rest Chris cared about.

w.

That's what I got from all the names. Doesn't seem like there are any ones that don't follow this pattern

[Vincent Messenet]

That's what I got from all the names. Doesn't seem like there are any ones that don't follow this pattern

Indeed it seems to apply to all boxes prims. Nice reverse engineering Max 

[Willy Tschager]

I sanded the text. If you're okay with itI'm gonna add it.



Nomenclature

Boxes are named boxF, with F representing the number of faces a box has. The suffix E represents the number of edges removed.

F and E are may followed by an additional letter. The hyphen is removed if F is accompanied by a modifier.

Face modifiers:

    o - faces are opposite to each other
    t - faces are all touching each other (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
    u - missing faces form a U-shape

Edge letters:

    p - edges are parallel to each other
    a - the missing face has no adjacent edges

[Willy Tschager]

I started copying the Curved primitives. I'm getting my hand wet on learning wiki formatting so I didn't check what's missing - for example -  in the ring section. I would leave that to you. So please check what sections of discs, chrds or rings are missing and report them with the correct row:

r=1 : 1-16rin1, 1-8ring1, 3-16rin1, 1-4ring1, 3-8ring1, 7-16rin1, 2-4ring1, 5-8ring1, 3-4ring1, 7-8ring1, 4-4ring1

Thanks,

w.

[Max Murtazin]

I sanded the text. If you're okay with itI'm gonna add it.



Nomenclature

Boxes are named boxF, with F representing the number of faces a box has. The suffix E represents the number of edges removed.

F and E are may followed by an additional letter. The hyphen is removed if F is accompanied by a modifier.

Face modifiers:

    o - faces are opposite to each other
    t - faces are all touching each other (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
    u - missing faces form a U-shape

Edge letters:

    p - edges are parallel to each other
    a - the missing face has no adjacent edges

a would be more like "some missing faces have no adjacent edges"
Also, p can have not all edges be parallel to eachother, but groups of independently parallel ones

[Orion Pobursky]

a would be more like "some missing faces have no adjacent edges"
Also, p can have not all edges be parallel to eachother, but groups of independently parallel ones

I feel like I opened a can of worms on this. If all the useful prims of this type are made then we don't really have to have exact documentation on this.

[Vincent Messenet]

I started copying the Curved primitives. I'm getting my hand wet on learning wiki formatting so I didn't check what's missing - for example -  in the ring section. I would leave that to you. So please check what sections of discs, chrds or rings are missing and report them with the correct row:

r=1 : 1-16rin1, 1-8ring1, 3-16rin1, 1-4ring1, 3-8ring1, 7-16rin1, 2-4ring1, 5-8ring1, 3-4ring1, 7-8ring1, 4-4ring1

Thanks,

w.

I've started to consolidate lists of all available rings in the library

I've already noticed double prims such as
p/3-16rin1.dat released in 2010-03 with 6 files using it
p/3-16ring1.dat released in 2019-01 with 4 files using it

Should we obsolete all these cases like it was done with 7-16ring1.dat?

[Gerald Lasser]

Missing rectilinear (also needing a render)

triangle.dat (Added to two dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
box4-12 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
box4-5a (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
box3u6a (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri3-1 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri3-3 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri3a3 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri4 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)

How box3#8p ever made it into the wild is weird to me

Circular Primitives:

Flat ones:
- Edge (16): I added 13-16
- Edge (48): I added 11-48

- Disc (48) : I added 1-24, 5-24
- chrd (48) : I added the missing ones, 5-48, 11-48, 1-4, 5-16, 5-12, 11-24, 2-4

Currently undocumented:

EDGH:
CYLH:
-> Those are also not being prim-substituted by LDView, maybe Travis needs to have a look here

Most of the standard ones are there, may be we should just complete them (some tang and hires are missing)

Rings are a very different story...

[Travis Cobbs]

Currently undocumented:

EDGH:
CYLH:
-> Those are also not being prim-substituted by LDView, maybe Travis needs to have a look here

I was unaware of their existence. I should be able to add them to LDView.

[Willy Tschager]

a would be more like "some missing faces have no adjacent edges"
Also, p can have not all edges be parallel to eachother, but groups of independently parallel ones

Nomenclature

Boxes are named boxF, with F representing the number of faces a box has. The suffix E represents the number of edges removed.

F and E are may followed by an additional letter. The hyphen is removed if F is accompanied by a modifier.

Face modifiers:

    o - faces are opposite to each other
    t - faces are all touching each other (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
    u - missing faces form a U-shape

Edge letters:

    p - groups of edges are parallel to each other
    a - some missing faces have no adjacent edges

[Willy Tschager]

I feel like I opened a can of worms on this. If all the useful prims of this type are made then we don't really have to have exact documentation on this.

What shall I say: You opened Pandora's box and now all the great and unexpected troubles are in the world.  

w.

[Vincent Messenet]

I've started to consolidate lists of all available rings in the library

Job completed will all rings prims normal/high/low resolutions and both official/unofficial ones

At the end I've held few prims/parts on PT and identified two official prims that could be obsoleted:
p/3-16ring1.dat released in 2019-01 with 4 files using it while we already have p/3-16rin1.dat released in 2010-03 with 6 files using it
p/7-16ring3.dat released in 2020-01 with 3 files using it while we already have p/7-16rin3.dat released in 2010-01 with 4 files using it

[Willy Tschager]

Currently undocumented:

EDGH:
CYLH:

  edgh.png (Size: 3.62 KB / Downloads: 147)
  cyhl.png (Size: 6.78 KB / Downloads: 148)

Let me know if these could work as thumbnails for the helix prims.

w.

[Gerald Lasser]

I was unaware of their existence. I should be able to add them to LDView.

I was also surprised to spot them when I dumped the whole prim directory and sorted through the files

[Gerald Lasser]

Let me know if these could work as thumbnails for the helix prims.

w.

Looks good for a first shot

[Willy Tschager]

I started adding:

https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primitives_R...ensional_2

Please cross-check if some versions are missing.

w.

[Vincent Messenet]

I've reviewed all 2D and 3D Curved primitives however I think we miss the recent tndis prims

[Takeshi Takahashi]

Thank you all for updating the prim ref page.
Very nice!!

I think "2-4chrd is preferred to 2-4disc unless special reason, as the unwanted centre vertex is not included" may be added in disc or chrd section.

[Rene Rechthaler]

Would there be a need for a 4-4chrd (a full circle like the 4-4disc but without the center vertex)?

[Max Murtazin]

Would there be a need for a 4-4chrd (a full circle like the 4-4disc but without the center vertex)?

Why 4-4disc isn't already that? 🤔

[Rene Rechthaler]

4-4 chrd would be 7 quads (14 triangles) instead of 16 triangles...
maybe less code and less render work...