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+--- Thread: Updating the Prim Ref page (/thread-27840.html)
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Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-22
Hi,
I guess you have experienced by yourself that the LDraw Primitives Reference is pretty outdate by now and should be fixed. I see this as a collaborative effort, where all authors should help in an update. No time constraints though - it has been like this for several years now and a month or two or three more doesn't change a thing.
The question is how do we tackle this so that the work isn't loaded on the shoulders of one person only.
* Wiki
* A Google Doc
* Forums
* Any other suggestion
Have your say.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Vincent Messenet - 2023-11-23
IMHO a Wiki sounds good for this type of documentation and especially with the collaborative approach this project deserve.
Additionally a shared Google Sheet could be useful to prepare the work, split the charge in tasks, assign tasks over multiple people and track the progress.
The approach could be to:
- List all prims to be documented and distribute them per category of prims
- Define a template for the Wiki
- Define the first category of prims to tackle and fill in the Wiki page using the template
- If necessary iterate with 2 and 3 until we are satisfied
- Then we can either continue similarly in workgroup category per category until we have addressed all categories
OREach person participating choose and take care of a category until we have addressed all categories
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-23
Sounds all reasonable. So first step would be getting the wiki back on track.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-24
Access to wiki has been restored. I created a stump for the page:
https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primitives_Reference
The current thumbs are 200x200. Is this okay with you?
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Philippe Hurbain - 2023-11-24
(2023-11-24, 16:11)Willy Tschager Wrote: The current thumbs are 200x200. Is this okay with you?Looks fine on my phone. To be checked on more complex prims, eg. npegholes
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-25
More than enough, maybe even could be scaled down to 150 x 150.
Styling of the page could use some work tho
Also, how do I make an account on the wiki? Using request account throws error:
"Error sending mail:
Unknown error in PHP's mail() function."
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Magnus Forsberg - 2023-11-25
This is just a collection of random questions from the top of my head thinking of primitives.
And what is the next step?
Will the wiki page replace the html-page? Is it possible to translate the wiki to a html-page?
The wiki page stump is missing an index in the header/beginning of the page.
Should the list still be limted to show only official primitives? If so, how do we make the unofficial primitives searchable?
Should we ban the creation of 5-16 primitives, and similar? A 5-16 is equal to a 1-16 + 1-4 and not needed/wanted?
What divisions are needed/wanted?
The default orientation doesn't work with the tri prism primitives.
As a metric only user I made this image to help understand the 16th
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Orion Pobursky - 2023-11-25
(2023-11-25, 14:24)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Will the wiki page replace the html-page? Is it possible to translate the wiki to a html-page?
I'm leaning towards yes but also have some reservations. It will, however, be fairly easy to translate to the library site. Keeping it in sync, however, is a bit more involved.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-25
(2023-11-25, 8:25)Max Murtazin Wrote: Also, how do I make an account on the wiki? Using request account throws error:
"Error sending mail:
Unknown error in PHP's mail() function."
This might help:
https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:RequestAccount
Orion has switched off account creation to reduce the work of blocking spammers. Let's see if this could work. But bear with me. I'm just doing my first steps into the wiki.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-25
I refined my batch file for thumbnail creation and uploaded some boxes:
https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles
In case you have a working wiki account feel free to add more boxes copying content from the current primref:
https://www.ldraw.org/library/primref/
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-25
(2023-11-25, 14:24)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Will the wiki page replace the html-page? Is it possible to translate the wiki to a html-page?
We could also replace the HTML-page with the Wiki - and allow only senior part author to edit it.
(2023-11-25, 14:24)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: The wiki page stump is missing an index in the header/beginning of the page.
It is missing almost everything. I'd say before we tackle formatting lets move the current content from the HTML to the wiki. I do not have much Wiki experience. If you do be my guest.
(2023-11-25, 14:24)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Should the list still be limted to show only official primitives? If so, how do we make the unofficial primitives searchable?
To be truly useful also unofficial should be added - and properly marked!
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-26
(2023-11-25, 15:50)Willy Tschager Wrote: This might help:
https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:RequestAccount
Orion has switched off account creation to reduce the work of blocking spammers. Let's see if this could work. But bear with me. I'm just doing my first steps into the wiki.
w.
"[1df6f72c8676610755ea1a79] 2023-11-26 01:41:37: Fatal exception of type "Error""
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Orion Pobursky - 2023-11-26
(2023-11-26, 1:41)Max Murtazin Wrote: "[1df6f72c8676610755ea1a79] 2023-11-26 01:41:37: Fatal exception of type "Error""
I found the cause of the error but I haven't found the fix yet.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Gerald Lasser - 2023-11-26
(2023-11-25, 15:53)Willy Tschager Wrote: I refined my batch file for thumbnail creation and uploaded some boxes:
https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles
I do like the view point for the prims, that is better for the trixxx prims
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Orion Pobursky - 2023-11-27
(2023-11-26, 1:41)Max Murtazin Wrote: "[1df6f72c8676610755ea1a79] 2023-11-26 01:41:37: Fatal exception of type "Error""
I think I've fixed the problem.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-27
(2023-11-25, 14:24)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: The wiki page stump is missing an index in the header/beginning of the page.
I added an index at the top (proper formatting has to be made) and copied some more content. As copy'n'paste usually opens the worm can of errors, I would appreciate it if someone could prove read the list.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-27
Something is going very wrong with the tables, that's causing most bottom one to bleed into the section going right after
Upd: fixed.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Vincent Messenet - 2023-11-27
(2023-11-24, 16:11)Willy Tschager Wrote: The current thumbs are 200x200. Is this okay with you?
200x200 looks great to me, not too small and not too big What do you use to generate the thumbs?
I've applied for a Wiki account.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-27
(2023-11-27, 15:32)Vincent Messenet Wrote: 200x200 looks great to me, not too small and not too big What do you use to generate the thumbs?
A LDView batch file:
http://www.holly-wood.it/ldview-en.html
I'm gonna post it here once I have access to the other computer.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Orion Pobursky - 2023-11-27
For the box primitives, I'd like to see a discussion on how the naming is derived.
Also, maybe a discussion on rotating the rect prims
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Gerald Lasser - 2023-11-27
My thoughts
-> first of all, the crosshair colours are wrong (ever since) blue is Z, red is X axis, that need to be brought in line
-> a link to a tutorial for the generation of ciscular prims (especially tori, mixed mode tori)
-> lo-res, Fast Render prims: document them as well? Imho the requirement for the stud2 needs to be documented with a sample imho
-> document depreciated naming (affects some round prims, e.g. cylc2, cyli2, ccyli)
-> there are some circular prims where the prim substitution is not yet working in LDView: e.g. cylh, edgh
How shall we structure this?
- general geometry
- rectangular
- round
- circle padding and adapters
- studs
- system/duplo/primo
- top
- bottom
- fillets
- technic
- tooth
- npeghol
- connectors
- bushes
- axle holes (including a "how to pad")
- clips and handles
- minifig
- Joints and Hinges
- Ball joints
- Rotation joint 2 and 3
- Click Hinge
- Hinge
- duplo
- znap
Apart from the prims, may be we shall also document some special subpart, like screws and electrical parts (non Lego parts, lile batteries etc.)
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-28
(2023-11-27, 21:43)Orion Pobursky Wrote: For the box primitives, I'd like to see a discussion on how the naming is derived.
I don't have the slightest idea.
(2023-11-27, 21:43)Orion Pobursky Wrote: Also, maybe a discussion on rotating the rect prims
Well, that's easy: Do NOT rotate outside of right angles: 90°, 180 ... on all axes.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-28
(2023-11-28, 6:55)Willy Tschager Wrote: I don't have the slightest idea.
It's a bit convoluted, but, as I get, here's how it goes
First, there is boxN, with N standing for number of faces the box has. Then, there is boxN-M, M standing for number of edges removed.
Then, N and M both can have a letter after them. Each letter stands for how missing faces/edges are placed relative to eachother. Dash in boxN-M removed, if N has a modifier letter
Edge letters:
- p - edges are parallel to eachother
- a - missing edges are placed in a way that leave missing face without edges (it's hard to word, more of you know it when you see it)
Face letters:
- o - faces are opposite to eachother
- t - faces are all touching eachother (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
- u - faces missing form a U shape
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-28
(2023-11-27, 21:46)Gerald Lasser Wrote: -> first of all, the crosshair colours are wrong (ever since) blue is Z, red is X axis, that need to be brought in line
Better?
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-28
(2023-11-28, 8:26)Willy Tschager Wrote: Better?
w.
Could've just edited the old pic
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-28
(2023-11-28, 9:19)Max Murtazin Wrote: Could've just edited the old pic
Sure, but when you get the chance to upgrade to a 2.0 version - opening to road to a million of new bugs causing total frustration in your users - you should never hesitate.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-28
(2023-11-27, 15:32)Vincent Messenet Wrote: What do you use to generate the thumbs?
Attached the script as well as the LDView settings used.
LDView_Batch.zip (Size: 1.1 KB / Downloads: 2)
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-29
(2023-11-27, 21:46)Gerald Lasser Wrote: Apart from the prims, may be we shall also document some special subpart, like screws and electrical parts (non Lego parts, lile batteries etc.)
Screws should be added. What I miss in your list are "logos"
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-29
(2023-11-28, 8:11)Max Murtazin Wrote: It's a bit convoluted, but, as I get, here's how it goes
First, there is boxN, with N standing for number of faces the box has. Then, there is boxN-M, M standing for number of edges removed.
Then, N and M both can have a letter after them. Each letter stands for how missing faces/edges are placed relative to eachother. Dash in boxN-M removed, if N has a modifier letter
Edge letters:
- p - edges are parallel to eachother
- a - missing edges are placed in a way that leave missing face without edges (it's hard to word, more of you know it when you see it)
Face letters:
- o - faces are opposite to eachother
- t - faces are all touching eachother (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
- u - faces missing form a U shape
Is this correct? I never cared about the naming. They were always there and for the rest Chris cared about.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-29
(2023-11-29, 5:44)Willy Tschager Wrote: Is this correct? I never cared about the naming. They were always there and for the rest Chris cared about.
w.
That's what I got from all the names. Doesn't seem like there are any ones that don't follow this pattern
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Vincent Messenet - 2023-11-29
(2023-11-29, 5:54)Max Murtazin Wrote: That's what I got from all the names. Doesn't seem like there are any ones that don't follow this pattern
Indeed it seems to apply to all boxes prims. Nice reverse engineering Max
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-30
I sanded the text. If you're okay with itI'm gonna add it.
Nomenclature
Boxes are named boxF, with F representing the number of faces a box has. The suffix E represents the number of edges removed.
F and E are may followed by an additional letter. The hyphen is removed if F is accompanied by a modifier.
Face modifiers:
o - faces are opposite to each other
t - faces are all touching each other (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
u - missing faces form a U-shape
Edge letters:
p - edges are parallel to each other
a - the missing face has no adjacent edges
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-11-30
I started copying the Curved primitives. I'm getting my hand wet on learning wiki formatting so I didn't check what's missing - for example - in the ring section. I would leave that to you. So please check what sections of discs, chrds or rings are missing and report them with the correct row:
r=1 : 1-16rin1, 1-8ring1, 3-16rin1, 1-4ring1, 3-8ring1, 7-16rin1, 2-4ring1, 5-8ring1, 3-4ring1, 7-8ring1, 4-4ring1
Thanks,
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-11-30
(2023-11-30, 6:05)Willy Tschager Wrote: I sanded the text. If you're okay with itI'm gonna add it.
Nomenclature
Boxes are named boxF, with F representing the number of faces a box has. The suffix E represents the number of edges removed.
F and E are may followed by an additional letter. The hyphen is removed if F is accompanied by a modifier.
Face modifiers:
o - faces are opposite to each other
t - faces are all touching each other (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
u - missing faces form a U-shape
Edge letters:
p - edges are parallel to each other
a - the missing face has no adjacent edges
a would be more like "some missing faces have no adjacent edges"
Also, p can have not all edges be parallel to eachother, but groups of independently parallel ones
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Orion Pobursky - 2023-11-30
(2023-11-30, 17:14)Max Murtazin Wrote: a would be more like "some missing faces have no adjacent edges"
Also, p can have not all edges be parallel to eachother, but groups of independently parallel ones
I feel like I opened a can of worms on this. If all the useful prims of this type are made then we don't really have to have exact documentation on this.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Vincent Messenet - 2023-11-30
(2023-11-30, 6:47)Willy Tschager Wrote: I started copying the Curved primitives. I'm getting my hand wet on learning wiki formatting so I didn't check what's missing - for example - in the ring section. I would leave that to you. So please check what sections of discs, chrds or rings are missing and report them with the correct row:
r=1 : 1-16rin1, 1-8ring1, 3-16rin1, 1-4ring1, 3-8ring1, 7-16rin1, 2-4ring1, 5-8ring1, 3-4ring1, 7-8ring1, 4-4ring1
Thanks,
w.
I've started to consolidate lists of all available rings in the library
I've already noticed double prims such as
p/3-16rin1.dat released in 2010-03 with 6 files using it
p/3-16ring1.dat released in 2019-01 with 4 files using it
Should we obsolete all these cases like it was done with 7-16ring1.dat?
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Gerald Lasser - 2023-11-30
Missing rectilinear (also needing a render)
triangle.dat (Added to two dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
box4-12 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
box4-5a (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
box3u6a (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri3-1 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri3-3 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri3a3 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
tri4 (Added to three dimensional - 01.12.2023 by Willy)
How box3#8p ever made it into the wild is weird to me
Circular Primitives:
Flat ones:
- Edge (16): I added 13-16
- Edge (48): I added 11-48
- Disc (48) : I added 1-24, 5-24
- chrd (48) : I added the missing ones, 5-48, 11-48, 1-4, 5-16, 5-12, 11-24, 2-4
Currently undocumented:
EDGH:
CYLH:
-> Those are also not being prim-substituted by LDView, maybe Travis needs to have a look here
Most of the standard ones are there, may be we should just complete them (some tang and hires are missing)
Rings are a very different story...
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Travis Cobbs - 2023-12-01
(2023-11-30, 23:43)Gerald Lasser Wrote: Currently undocumented:
EDGH:
CYLH:
-> Those are also not being prim-substituted by LDView, maybe Travis needs to have a look here
I was unaware of their existence. I should be able to add them to LDView.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-12-01
(2023-11-30, 17:14)Max Murtazin Wrote: a would be more like "some missing faces have no adjacent edges"
Also, p can have not all edges be parallel to eachother, but groups of independently parallel ones
Nomenclature
Boxes are named boxF, with F representing the number of faces a box has. The suffix E represents the number of edges removed.
F and E are may followed by an additional letter. The hyphen is removed if F is accompanied by a modifier.
Face modifiers:
o - faces are opposite to each other
t - faces are all touching each other (usually, it's implied, but box4t.dat is a thing)
u - missing faces form a U-shape
Edge letters:
p - groups of edges are parallel to each other
a - some missing faces have no adjacent edges
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-12-01
(2023-11-30, 18:29)Orion Pobursky Wrote: I feel like I opened a can of worms on this. If all the useful prims of this type are made then we don't really have to have exact documentation on this.
What shall I say: You opened Pandora's box and now all the great and unexpected troubles are in the world.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Vincent Messenet - 2023-12-01
(2023-11-30, 20:01)Vincent Messenet Wrote: I've started to consolidate lists of all available rings in the library
Job completed will all rings prims normal/high/low resolutions and both official/unofficial ones
At the end I've held few prims/parts on PT and identified two official prims that could be obsoleted:
p/3-16ring1.dat released in 2019-01 with 4 files using it while we already have p/3-16rin1.dat released in 2010-03 with 6 files using it
p/7-16ring3.dat released in 2020-01 with 3 files using it while we already have p/7-16rin3.dat released in 2010-01 with 4 files using it
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-12-01
(2023-11-30, 23:43)Gerald Lasser Wrote: Currently undocumented:
EDGH:
CYLH:
edgh.png (Size: 3.62 KB / Downloads: 150)
cyhl.png (Size: 6.78 KB / Downloads: 151)
Let me know if these could work as thumbnails for the helix prims.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Gerald Lasser - 2023-12-01
(2023-12-01, 0:38)Travis Cobbs Wrote: I was unaware of their existence. I should be able to add them to LDView.
I was also surprised to spot them when I dumped the whole prim directory and sorted through the files
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Gerald Lasser - 2023-12-01
(2023-12-01, 10:49)Willy Tschager Wrote: Let me know if these could work as thumbnails for the helix prims.
w.
Looks good for a first shot
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Willy Tschager - 2023-12-01
I started adding:
https://wiki.ldraw.org/wiki/Primitives_Reference#Three_dimensional_2
Please cross-check if some versions are missing.
w.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Vincent Messenet - 2023-12-01
I've reviewed all 2D and 3D Curved primitives however I think we miss the recent tndis prims
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Takeshi Takahashi - 2023-12-01
Thank you all for updating the prim ref page.
Very nice!!
I think "2-4chrd is preferred to 2-4disc unless special reason, as the unwanted centre vertex is not included" may be added in disc or chrd section.
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Rene Rechthaler - 2023-12-01
Would there be a need for a 4-4chrd (a full circle like the 4-4disc but without the center vertex)?
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Max Murtazin - 2023-12-01
(2023-12-01, 16:51)Rene Rechthaler Wrote: Would there be a need for a 4-4chrd (a full circle like the 4-4disc but without the center vertex)?
Why 4-4disc isn't already that? 🤔
RE: Updating the Prim Ref page - Rene Rechthaler - 2023-12-01
4-4 chrd would be 7 quads (14 triangles) instead of 16 triangles...
maybe less code and less render work...