Are logos primitives or subfiles?

[Magnus Forsberg]

There are some new logo primitives on the Part Tracker

   

I see a problem with all these logo primitives. They never seem to fit the need, in more that a few parts.
And that's why I think they should be treated as templates, and are free to use inlined, whenever it's possible.

We allready have some fonts, letters and numbes as primitives. Could be used as primitives, but are best used inlined to get correct kerning between the letters, for instance. But we have logos as both primitives and subfiles, official in the library.

The logos need to be detailed enough so that they are possible to enlarge. But the downside is that they might become ridiculously detailed when used shrunken on smaller parts. (Yes, I'm thinking of the Ferrari horse on the 1x1 tiles. They are stupidly detailed).

   

All these logos on parts with the new Fire badge logo, are different. One, or two, borders around the badge, of different thickness.
With or without sharp, or sloping, corners.

I don't want to see any more fire badge primitives. These 4 are made and useful. They can be used together as one badge, rescaled, but should preferably be used as templates. They might need reshaping.

So, my question is: -  Are the logos primitives or subfiles?

[Orion Pobursky]

The line is blurry in this regard but I've always felts they were subfiles. The decision to go primitive was made before my tenure as Admin so I went with it. As things have gotten more and more complex in the logo space I'm starting to feel that they are less in line with the primitive ecosystem. I also find the concept of primitives as templates distasteful (although I can't really articulate why). 

Example: I have a list of 30+ files from one author that are logos or pieces of logos. Many of these logo pieces are used once. This is not the reusability standard I would expect in a primitive. And before someone complains about many different subfiles for the same logo, this is one of the things the part review process is supposed to catch.

[Willy Tschager]

I'm just fine with logos as prims. Nobody pretended that they can't be inlined but have to be used as they are. Having them helps and that's the important fact.

w.

[Philippe Hurbain]

The only benefit I see to make logos as primitives is that they are documented in primref. Otherwise I see them as mere subfiles.

[Orion Pobursky]

I'm starting to lean towards this:
Logo primitives should be self contained (e.g. one file) with a minimal bounding box if needed. Try to make the primitive fit as many uses as possible. If variations are needed (such as different text colors), the existing logo primitive should be inlined and altered to suit.

[Orion Pobursky]

Note: All new logos will be held back from release (but not Hold voted) until we come to a consensus, or I make a decision.

[Max Murtazin]

Is there even an official definition of what is primitive, and what is subfile?

[Orion Pobursky]

Is there even an official definition of what is primitive, and what is subfile?

No. Nor should there be as it is a judgement call based on use case and reusability.

[Max Murtazin]

No. Nor should there be as it is a judgement call based on use case and reusability.

Really makes decision troublesome

Well, looking at general situation I'd say logos belong in subparts. Doesn't fit much among primitives IMO, which are in 99% of cases either extremely common part elements or simple geometries.

[Willy Tschager]

Really makes decision troublesome

Well, looking at general situation I'd say logos belong in subparts. Doesn't fit much among primitives IMO, which are in 99% of cases either extremely common part elements or simple geometries.

So you prefer searching the subparts folder for the classic space logo, the octan logo, the red cross or the Audi rings that fits your needs instead of the p folder where it should be documented in primref (what happend to that project)?

w.

[Max Murtazin]

So you prefer searching the subparts folder for the classic space logo, the octan logo, the red cross or the Audi rings that fits your needs instead of the p folder where it should be documented in primref (what happend to that project)?

w.

Useful common geometries can be documented without being primitives, IMO. Just, as I described, without more or less clear definition of what primitive is and is not, I don't consider logo fitting if being primitives

[Gerald Lasser]

So you prefer searching the subparts folder for the classic space logo, the octan logo, the red cross or the Audi rings that fits your needs instead of the p folder where it should be documented in primref (what happend to that project)?

w.

There are also other (sub-)parts which are worth documenting in a kind of prim-ref, like
- screws
- Batteries
etc.

[Vincent Messenet]

There are also other (sub-)parts which are worth documenting in a kind of prim-ref, like
- screws
- Batteries
etc.

I agree with the subfile approach with a documentation similar to prim-ref. I also add to the list:
- Bottom of stickers (e.g. https://library.ldraw.org/tracker/28343)