LDD is dead?

[Philippe Hurbain]

Just read this on Eurobricks forum, after many rumors...

Our Ambassador over at Swebrick has gotten this information out of the Ambassador forum:

I've just touched base with one of our Digital Product Specialists within the Consumer Services team. A business decision has been made to no longer allocate resources towards the LDD program / initiative. For now, the program will continue to be offered to anyone interested in utilizing it but please do not expect any updates regarding functionality, the adding of new LEGO elements or glitch fixes. We have decided to pursue other digital experiences. Although this may not be the answer you were hoping for, I hope this information will be of use to your RLUG members. Thank you for your time and continued support for the LEGO Brand & hobby.

[Max Martin Richter]

This statement was posted within the German 1000steine.de forum a couple of weeks ago. So it seems to be correct :-(

/Max

[Orion Pobursky]

It's just part of the community pullback LEGO has been doing. Now that they are wildly popular they don't need us AFOLs to bring people into the hobby and so therefore it's not worth having as much of a fan presence.

[Max Martin Richter]

Anyway it's seems to be a good opportunity to get some more users to the LDraw system. :-)

/Max

[Merlijn Wissink]

I've been reading comments on Brickset's article about this and also on Eurobricks and it seems a lot of LDD users chose LDD over LDraw because of the brick-snapping feature that "LDraw" is missing. A lot of those people seem to only have tried MLCad and then think that that is LDraw, while it isn't at all. SR3D Builder (and LDCad lately) have had brick-snapping for years.

I don't blame them though, 99% of 'LDraw tutorials' are old and outdated and use MLCad and MLCad was so big back then that a lot of people associate LDraw with MLCad. What would it take to change people's view of LDraw? A new series of tutorials covering all the latest software? A new website that's more targeted at helping people with LDraw instead of a source of documentation and organizational information?

I'm not trying to make some kind of advertising campaing or something
But, Ive been seeing this for a while now and especially now, a lot of people seem to have the 'wrong' view of LDraw (at least, I think). That it's difficult, that it's old, that it's...

[Gerald Lasser]

I need to agree with you, there needs to be more advertisement for the new generation of SW for LDraw, like LDCad which makes many things easier to handle than in MLCad. MLCad was for a long time the tool of choice and still is for many people.

Now with LDD on a parking orbit, it looks like the suite surrounding LDraw needs a Product Management to cope with user'S demands. ;-)

It would be great if TLC would still support the community in a way that they still provide the raw part files to be used and converted into LDraw pieces.

on EB there is also a lot of discussion going on over Mecabricks, the online editor, do you know how the part structure of this tool looks?

[Philippe Hurbain]

I tried for years to induce people to use more convenient editors than MLCad (first LeoCAD, then SR3D builder, now LDCad), but with very limited success...

[Max Martin Richter]

I tried this sometimes as well. I write about these programs, if there are question about Ldraw in the 1000steine.de Forum and I try to bring this topic into discussion, when I meet people from my local LUG as well. But the success is here very limited too.
Most of the people even don't understand the difference between LDraw/MLCad/LDView/LDCad/etc.
But I have no idea how to bring the 'older' users to newer programs. And to be honest, sometimes I use MLCad as well for modeling - don't know why but sometimes it happens. :-)

/Max

[Gerald Lasser]

For building I use MLCad as well, I think it is just convenience.

For part editing I do not use MLCAD anymore as it is tedious, LDPE is definitely the SW of choice here

[Milan Vančura]

I agree. LDraw "releases" AIOI every year, including the new SW, but there is no WWW page about what's inside and what it is good for. Not saying about tutorials showing the workflow using more than one SW, for example "How to create LEGO-style instructions: from A to Z, using these applications in row". That's really missing. I know how hard it was for me to find SR3D Builder features, even to get know it exists. And similar with LDCad. It is possible but one has to have really huge patience to read through all that outdated stuff and check every piece of information.

Especially because AIOI is for MS Windows only and there is no central place either for Linux users or Mac users.

What to do with that?

For example: I summarized my workflows in Czech AFOL forum and I may translate it to English. But I do not see any maintained place to put it to. The maintainer of this activity is really missing - or I do not know him.

[Merlijn Wissink]

About a year or 2 ago, I was actually planning a website that would include (updated) information, tutorials and guides for a lot of LDraw software and workflows. It eventually died though, because of the lack of time then and because I'm not a very good writer...

[Gerald Lasser]

TLC did a bit of a U-turn today, well not entirely, but with respect to parts being added:

TLG will remain committed to digital building going forward, in regards to LDD, this means that we will continue to support the current functionality. We will not be doing automatic updates on elements, however elements will continue to be added from time to time. Unfortunately we cannot ensure that all elements are made available. I can see that the message has spread widely in the community since Kevin’s statement and I hope that you will assist us in spreading this message as well. Thank you!

[Michael Horvath]

Why not write a page for the wiki?

http://wiki.ldraw.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Bill Ward]

The LDraw.org site needs a massive facelift - there are a lot of articles that haven't been updated in years. The tutorials are all MLCAD based. There's no "how to get started with LDraw" that supports newer tools.

[Willy Tschager]

Be my guest! I'll upload your tutorials as soon as you ship them or use the Wiki to add them yourself.

w.

[Milan Vančura]

Sure I'm one of volunteers. But, as I know I'm very busy (and my situation does not change in next 10 months) I cannot be the one who maintains the server itself. Either it is a special section at ldraw.org or Wiki. And you can see the Wiki (as an example) really needs the maintainer:

which page links to the new tutorial Michael Horvath just created

(in case somebody changes that meantime: it says "No pages link to Stereoscopic 3D Glasses Tutorial." to me.)

I'm sorry, this is beyond my time budget, it would be unfair of me if I promised something I don't have time to do.
But if somebody starts to maintain this (creates a page with sections for tutorials of different kinds and starts filtering the old stuff, deleting obsolete things and/or ask people for a help with rewriting them, plus maintaining what's missing), I raise my hand as a volunteer author of tutorials, for example: for LDCad, LPub, Linux specifics and "how to make instructions" workflows.

[Michael Horvath]

The article is accessible from the "Tutorials" category, like all tutorials.

http://wiki.ldraw.org/index.php?title=Ca...:Tutorials

[Jaco van der Molen]

Hmm, I read what you all say here and I too must agree with most that has been written.

As author of the Dutch guide to working with MLCad (binarybricks.nl) and the Official LPub Online Manual (lpub.binarybricks.nl) I tell what I know and what I can. There are complete tutorials there on how to create a digital model and turn it into decent instructions.

Being involved in LDraw since 1997 and still using MLCad as main editor, I have insufficient knowledge to write a manual on say LDCad. Which is my weaknesses on that part I guess.
I think the documentation Roland has written on the LDCad website pretty much covers working with it.
Still the learning curve is high and personally I am uncomfortable with it (due to my years of MLCad history).

Starting with LDD and really being able to create a model with it took me a few years too for that same reason.

I never worked with SR3D because I did not and still do not own a machine with the right specs (graphics card) to get it running. And since the development of SR3D sadly stopped (correct me if I am wrong) with the passing of its author, I think we need to focus on either MLCad or LDCad to get new users enthousiast for "our" great system of tools.
Neither did I ever work with Leocad, Mecabricks, etc.

What I did do and still doing is present LDraw to the public, both adults (AFOL or not) and children at LEGOWORLD in the Netherlands (in Zwolle and now Utrecht). I did this over 10 years now got many souls interested in LDraw and know many people who are still working it. I offer help to anyone who has questions. Still mainly MLCad / LPub related only though.

Perhaps we need to present and demonstrate more LDraw and related tools on other LEGOWORLDS and conventions like Brickcon and Brickworld like I do in the Netherlands.
Really showing people what they can do with it, makes it more understandable then just telling about it on a website and showing them the awesome models we create.

I'd like to go to any other convention anywhere (looking for sponsors :-) and do what I do in the Netherlands.

Meanwhile I hope I somehow get more interested in LDCad and go write about that and I'll keep working on the LPub(3D) manual.
I still think LDraw is pretty much alive. "All" we need to do is get more people to work with it.

[Orion Pobursky]

Perhaps we need to present and demonstrate more LDraw and related tools on other LEGOWORLDS and conventions like Brickcon and Brickworld like I do in the Netherlands.
Really showing people what they can do with it, makes it more understandable then just telling about it on a website and showing them the awesome models we create.

Here in the U.S. this was me until about 4-5 years ago. I'd like to start again but won't be able to until I leave Hawaii.

[Milan Vančura]

I meant this list of tutorials. Is it somehow synced with wiki?

[Jaco van der Molen]

I meant this list of tutorials. Is it somehow synced with wiki?

That page has a typo BTW: the word "instuctions" is missing the R 4 times!

I still maintain the LPub manual and am (re)writing it for LPub3D. So that one is pretty much alive.
My other site (binarybricks.nl in Dutch) is mainly about MLCad and not actively maintained.
I'd like to write about i.e. LDCad, but I am not yet comfortable with it.

[Willy Tschager]

No. But there are links from to site to the wiki Help > Tutorials (at wiki) and viceversa.

w.

[Milan Vančura]

Please keep the old version of LPub manual (anout LPub4) alive, at least until LPub3D becomes multiplatform as LPub4 is. Can you?

I may write a tutorial about LDCad and how to use it together with LPub.
However, I do not know where to put the result to. This discussion confused me instead of making things more clear

[Jaco van der Molen]

Please keep the old version of LPub manual (anout LPub4) alive, at least until LPub3D becomes multiplatform as LPub4 is. Can you?

Sure will do. See: http://lpub.binarybricks.nl/
It is still there and I rather plan on keeping it that way because many of what I tell about LPub (4.0.0.11) is the same as LPub3D. There is a special section for LPub3D: https://sites.google.com/site/workingwithlpub/lpub3d

I may write a tutorial about LDCad and how to use it together with LPub.
However, I do not know where to put the result to. This discussion confused me instead of making things more clear

Perhaps we can work something out?
I use Google Sites as a platform for my websites which works perfectly for me.
We could do it together? :-)

[Milan Vančura]

It is still there and I rather plan on keeping it that way because many of what I tell about LPub (4.0.0.11) is the same as LPub3D. There is a special section for LPub3D: https://sites.google.com/site/workingwithlpub/lpub3d

Great! Thank you. Your site is the best LPub documentation. In fact, I was able to start with LPub only thanks to your site.

Perhaps we can work something out?
We could do it together? :-)

I'm perfectly OK with this! I cannot promise much of my time now but I do my best. I have my notes about both LDCad and LPub. We can start a separate topic here so others can see our progress and join us. (Thinking about Roland )

[Milan Vančura]

No. But there are links from to site to the wiki Help > Tutorials (at wiki) and viceversa.

OK. So we start collecting our knowledge with Jaco and others and then we discuss it with you how to integrate it to ldraw www site, yes?
And, of course, you may join our discussion at any time between

[Michael Horvath]

No they are not listed there, but a link to the wiki *should* be. Might want to ping Orion.

[Merlijn Wissink]

I imagine a subwebsite at ldraw.org with a section for every LDraw related software.
It has a sidebar which links to all kinds of things related to the selected software: documentation, tutorials, guides, tips, whatever.

I've actually created a prototype for something like that a looong time ago, but as I said earlier, content was a little problem

[Magnus Forsberg]

May I also ask for some sort of non-text based approach to these tutorials? Many pictures and maybe some videos?

I personally don't like video tutorial on youtube, but nowadays people seam to expect learning almost everything, without having to read anything.

[Jaco van der Molen]

No. But there are links from to site to the wiki Help > Tutorials (at wiki) and viceversa.

OK. So we start collecting our knowledge with Jaco and others and then we discuss it with you how to integrate it to ldraw www site, yes?
And, of course, you may join our discussion at any time between

We need a new topic for this, I think.
Where to start one?

[Jaco van der Molen]

May I also ask for some sort of non-text based approach to these tutorials? Many pictures and maybe some videos?

True. Perhaps we should look for some image/video based tutorials without spoken word? Just like TLG does with instructions, so everyone who does not master English can also learn.
Difficult maybe?

[Orion Pobursky]

Either website suggestions or general discussion

[Jaco van der Molen]

For my fellow Dutch LDrawers, I am modifying my website binarybricks.nl to fit in an LDCad manual in Dutch.
I am re-writing some stuff and reorganizing things.
Here is a preview:
https://sites.google.com/site/binarybricks/ldcad

[Milan Vančura]

Hello. I'm sorry I cannot reply faster/sooner/more_often now, I'm busy - as I warned. But I have a good message: one of true LDraw beginners asked for a help on the Czech forum after two days of trying to set LDraw utils up, still knowing a very little about terminology, programs etc. Instead of spending hours on Skype with him I summarized "An LDraw guide for really true beginners" containing everything from total nothing to the first PDF with (some) instructions. And - all that in about 20 lines only. And it works! Several people already sent me their thanks that they can finally understand LDraw and continue with Jaco's and Roland's documentation themselves then.

So it looks useful and understandable and I translate it to English and put to LDraw wiki as soon as time permits.

[Jaco van der Molen]

So it looks useful and understandable and I translate it to English and put to LDraw wiki as soon as time permits.

Great! Please post it here too as attachment to a reply?

[Hamish Grace]

Hi, I'm a long-time user of LDD, love it to bits.  I love the simple UI, easy to use, nice layout of the pieces in an easy-to-search interface, and a pretty building interface.
I tried using LDraw once before but found the information and choices to be quite over-whelming.  A quick google for 'LDraw' came up with a parts list and a whole bunch of different editors and it was too much, so I stayed with LDD.
Now LDD is semi-dead, I'm trying to learn LDraw again.

I'm interested in learning about LDraw and want to know what the closest editor to LDD would be.
I've tried opening MLCad and was physically ill upon seeing the interface.  I've just now downloaded MLCad and SR-3D Builder and would like to know where the resources for learning how to use these would be.

As someone who uses advanced 3D applications on a day-to-day basis (I work in the games industry and use 3DS-Max and Maya), I'm not afraid of a complicated UI, but the information available to me for learning these LDraw applications is disparate and fragmented.
LDD was so easy to learn, all the info was right there in an easy-to-find options menu, and it was so simple to just get started and make some models, but with these LDraw applications I find myself completely lost.

[Magnus Forsberg]

I think you should really try out LDCad.



It is the best editor today and is constantly beeing expanded with more improvments.