Using the LDraw name

[rioforce]

Hi, I am contributing to a Blender LDraw Import script, and I was wondering if we could call it "Blender LDraw Importer". I know it has the name LDraw in it, but after all, it imports LDraw files, and if we called it anything else, nobody would know what it is.

Thanks!

-rioforce

[his shoes? WHACK]

is this for me

[Orion Pobursky]

Any program that implements the LDraw.org File Format is considered "LDraw compatible". This is a little bit fungible since we don't really enforce this in any way (nor could we).

As for the LDraw name, we don't have any control. We are graciously allowed to use the name by the estate of James Jessiman. That said, as long as your program/converter/whatever has something to do with LDraw and you are not passing yourself off as officially endorsed by LDraw.org then you'll probably be fine.

[Willy Tschager]

So it seems I need to append "LD" to the beginning of the project name, correct? Also keep in mind that there kinda has to be "LDraw" stated somewhere. The import menu where you invoke it is one, and some of the script messages, so I can't cut it out completely. It's the nature of an import script.

I'd like to add to Orion's statement that you might use the term "LDraw" in dialogs or menus such as "Path to the LDraw Parts Library" or "Import LDraw model" or on a web page describing what's all about, but you cannot use the Word "LDraw" in a programs title. Therefore LDR2Blender or LDBlenderImporter or any other combination would be fine.

w.

[rioforce]

What about COLLADA, LightWave, or Wavefront OBJ? They all use trademarked names, and they are very popular. They do not say that they are officially developed by the companies, but they import them. Since we are not distributing the LDraw Library with the script, I think we should use the LDraw name (and put a disclaimer saying it's not actully by LDraw.org) for clearity, and people to find it easily.

[Tim Gould]

If you read through the rules about the use of the name, you will see that it clearly states that LDraw has no right to allow others to use the name. So what you think, or we think, is moot. What the Jessiman estate thinks is what's important.

I agree your name makes sense. If you call it "Blender LDR/MPD Importer" all would be fine. You can then refer to the LDraw parts, and LDraw everywhere else.

Tim

[Willy Tschager]

Is this script a stand-alone prog of something that is called from within Blender?

w.

[his shoes? WHACK]

um ok

[Tim Gould]

Just a few comments for you guys about trademark laws (following on from comments you made at GitHub):

1) Trademark counts whether or not something is free or not. Some companies have a policy of allowing free use, some don't. Try using the word LEGO in the name of your script and you'll see what I mean. They will have their lawyers send you a cease and desist, like they've done for countless websites.

2) As you rightly point out, LDraw is not a registered trademarked. However, Australia (where the trademark originates) has the concept of "use-based rights" which do not require registration. They are conferred by building a reputation in a marketplace, and it can be safely argued that in the marketplace of LEGO compatible modelling formats, LDraw has a very strong reputation.

3) As such, if the Jessiman's decided to get a lawyer onto you, they could. They probably won't, but they could. You need to ask yourself if you'd be willing to deal with that risk.

4) Also, do you realise you actually can distribute the library with your code? It's open source.

Tim

[rioforce]

1) LEGO has a fair-play policy. If you clearly say it's not official, it won't matter. Plus, if they got lawyers, we could gladly change the name.

2) I don't understand about that, but don't you need an internationaly registered trademark to say if we can use a name or not?

3) If they sent lawyers, sure, we would change the name. But if it's open source and LDraw is open source, why can we not affiliate it with LDraw via the name?

4) We don't want to distribute the library. Our script is a plugin for Blender, not a stand-alone program. We have no need to distribute the library.

[Tim Gould]

You guys are going to have to get a bit more clued in to real life if you want to keep making software (eg. see what happens to open-source perl project that use camels in their logo). I like your work, I even think you should be able to use the name LDraw, but sitting around making bullshit, anti-factual arguments is not the way to go about using it. Your friend "Banbury" is particularly dangerous with his misinformation about trademark laws. The truth is not hard to find on google and should be read carefully.

"1) LEGO has a fair-play policy. If you clearly say it's not official, it won't matter. Plus, if they got lawyers, we could gladly change the name."

I can assure you they would do it if you used LEGO in the URL or project title. Because they have. Repeatedly.

"2) I don't understand about that, but don't you need an internationaly registered trademark to say if we can use a name or not?"

No. Trademark law is, for the most part, internationally compatible.

"3) If they sent lawyers, sure, we would change the name. But if it's open source and LDraw is open source, why can we not affiliate it with LDraw via the name?"

I'm not sure why James Jessiman's parents kept the trademark after he died, but I assume it was to stop people misusing it. The trademark on the name is a completely different issue to the open source nature of the LDraw language and parts. Stop conflating the two.

"4) We don't want to distribute the library. Our script is a plugin for Blender, not a stand-alone program. We have no need to distribute the library."

I'm not forcing you to do it.

Tim

[rioforce]

Ok, forget it. We will figure it out.

[his shoes? WHACK]

what did i type here idk

[Tim Gould]

Hi,

For the record I've found you to be extremely polite and collegial. I totally understand your desire to use the name, and support it (albeit with no power to do anything about it). My comment above about getting "clued in" was directed at rioforce and Banbury, not you who clearly is clued in

I think I can speak on behalf of the other LDraw webmasters in saying we will do what we can to support your project, whatever the final name.

Tim

[his shoes? WHACK]

editing

[his shoes? WHACK]

also edited

[Max Martin Richter]

I think, this is a good choice.
Nevertheless you should really add a mpd support, because most of the models, I know, are made with this extension.

/Max

[Steffen]

+1

[his shoes? WHACK]

edited

[Michael Heidemann]

Hmmm....
I just had a look at LDD and there you can do "Model Export" or "Model Import" -> "LDraw-files (*.ldr)"...