LDCad 1.0 (win+linux)

[Roland Melkert]

I've uploaded the definitive 1.0 version to

http://www.melkert.net/LDCad

Mostly bug fixes over the beta 2 version.
The most important addition is the ability to move parts to another building step.

With this 'stable' version I'm going to work on some major features for the 1.1 version and as a result there will be less frequent updates unless there's a major issue reported.

Planned (some) features for 1.1 are:
- Multiple views including 2D Ortho mode (front/left/top/etc)
- Flexible parts (pneumatic hose, etc)

Any additional suggestions are still welcome though.

[Jetro de Château]

Roland,

I used to follow LDraw on LUGNET, but ever since the discussions were moved here I've been out of touch.
I discovered your program because someone referred to it on Linked-in and I have been trying it today.

I have a number of questions/suggestions:

• How can I set the rotation point for the entire model to be the centre of a specific part?
  In LDD right-clicking on a part changes the focus to that part, including rotation. In your program I have been unable to change the rotation point from 0,0,0.
  
• Can I turn the colour wheel to get better access to the different colours?
  Alternatively maybe you can show the wheel from a less tilted perspective so colours on the sides are easier to differentiate.
  
• Is there a good reason why the studs on the program icon look like they are from megabloks? (legal issues?)
  
• When I use copy&paste, why is the pasted part not placed in the same position as the one I copied?
  I know I can use 'insert', but sometime copy&paste is easier.
  

Also, in the color pane one of the entries reads "mettallic" - that's one 't' too many: "metallic"

[Roland Melkert]

How can I set the rotation point for the entire model to be the centre of a specific part?
In LDD right-clicking on a part changes the focus to that part, including rotation. In your program I have been unable to change the rotation point from 0,0,0.

Do you mean for editing or just viewing?

For viewing you can change the 'look at point' by using the arrow icons inside the compass or by pressing 'c' while inside the editing window (this will set the lookat to the selection's position).

For editing you select the center part followed by 'select all' in the selection menu. Rotating using the editing pin now rotates everything using the first selected part's origin.

Can I turn the colour wheel to get better access to the different colours?
Alternatively maybe you can show the wheel from a less tilted perspective so colours on the sides are easier to differentiate.

You can change the tilt of the wheel (new in the latest 1.0 version) by using ctrl+scrollwheel while the mouse is inside the colorwindow. Mousewheel without the ctrl rotates the wheel on it's axis. The tilt will be remembered, the rotation will only be kept for this view until you exit the application or move up in the menu tree.

Is there a good reason why the studs on the program icon look like they are from megabloks? (legal issues?)

No, it's because I'm rubbish in drawing

When I use copy&paste, why is the pasted part not placed in the same position as the one I copied?
I know I can use 'insert', but sometime copy&paste is easier.

This is because parts (including the paste selection) are placed using the last active orientation. When you paste something that's placed rotated the resulting ldr fragment on the clipboard includes this rotation. When you paste back the 'work rotation' is applied again just as with any other part placement. The 'ins' key corrects for this giving it more of a cloning feel.

I might add an option to the 'copy menu' for this, so it optionally copies with neutral rotation.

Also, in the color pane one of the entries reads "mettallic" - that's one 't' too many: "metallic"

Ah, thanks. I corrected it in my code. If it bothers you enough you can correct it in your installation by editing the "colorBin\metallic.cbg" file at the line that starts with "caption="

[Jetro de Château]

For editing you select the center part followed by 'select all' in the selection menu. Rotating using the editing pin now rotates everything using the first selected part's origin.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
Can you add the (standard) shortcut ctrl+a for select all? There doesn't appear to be a working shortcut for that function

You can change the tilt of the wheel (new in the latest 1.0 version) by using ctrl+scrollwheel while the mouse is inside the colorwindow. Mousewheel without the ctrl rotates the wheel on it's axis. The tilt will be remembered, the rotation will only be kept for this view until you exit the application or move up in the menu tree.

I hadn't even realised the wheel could turn. Nice!
Is there a way to choose a colour from it's name/number? If I know I want "light bluish grey" I now need to go through the wheels to see where it is at.

Is there a good reason why the studs on the program icon look like they are from megabloks? (legal issues?)

No, it's because I'm rubbish in drawing

Can't you use an LDraw render (maybe removing the LEGO logo from the studs)?

When I use copy&paste, why is the pasted part not placed in the same position as the one I copied?
I know I can use 'insert', but sometime copy&paste is easier.

This is because parts (including the paste selection) are placed using the last active orientation.

I read this several times and it finally dawned on me that you may be referring to the last active orientation of the last part I inserted. This does not seem to make much sense though, because if I insert several parts and rotate them differently, if I select any of those parts and drag a new part in the new part will have the same rotation as the selected part. So why should it be different in copy&paste? if I copy the part shouldn't it be copied including the rotation of that specific part? Is there an advantage to doing it differently?

Another thought... have you considered the possibility of translating your program, making it possible for others to supply a translation in an easy format. I once looked into translating MLCad into Spanish (there is a partial translation, but it is incomplete and needs an update) but the skills and software required to do that were beyond my possibilities.

[Roland Melkert]

I haven't add ctrl+a thinking: working with all parts in the selection doesn't happen often. So it's probably better to keep that key binding free for some future feature.

For manual color assignment you can use the part properties dialog. You open that by clicking on the little position panel while a selection is active or by pressing the 'enter' key.

In a future version I will probably add a way to set the 'working color' using the keyboard. (e.g. typing 71 while the mouse is in the working color preview box.)

I have to 'upgrade' most of the 'artwork' some day, but I'm a bit lazy on that front. This is also the reason I used photo's for the part bin instead of even more crappy self made drawings.

I read this several times and it finally dawned on me that you may be referring to the last active orientation of the last part I inserted. This does not seem to make much sense though, because if I insert several parts and rotate them differently, if I select any of those parts and drag a new part in the new part will have the same rotation as the selected part. So why should it be different in copy&paste? if I copy the part shouldn't it be copied including the rotation of that specific part? Is there an advantage to doing it differently?

This is because the LDraw parts all have zero rotation, so it doesn't matter for them. But coping a selection uses the absolute placement matrix so they usually do have rotation. So when you have a brick placed at 90 degrees and copy it the paste will rotate the (90 degree rotated) brick again according to the last orientation (which could be something different if you e.g change the selection before using paste).

This is as it should be imho, cause other software has no way of knowing the rotation of the clipboard fragment otherwise. But I could add an option to the little dialog you get when you copy a selection (only shows if it's options are 'use full' on the selection) that lets you choose to 'remove' the rotation before placing it on the clipboard.

Another thought... have you considered the possibility of translating your program, making it possible for others to supply a translation in an easy format. I once looked into translating MLCad into Spanish (there is a partial translation, but it is incomplete and needs an update) but the skills and software required to do that were beyond my possibilities.

Yes, but I decided (for the time being atleast) against it for three reasons.

1. In my other LDraw program (LD4DStudio) I applied the full transparent language stuff and nobody has made a translation yet.
2. It's a pain to program, using all those constants instead of static text, which is not worth it when nobody uses it (#1).
3. The text that appears over the 3D rendering only supports 7bit ascii at the moment. (dialogs are full unicode though)

I might reconsider in the future if it gets requested a lot and I implement a way to render unicode in OpenGL.

Thanks for you thoughts.

[Jetro de Château]

Maybe it's because I'm not very good at using the rotation function, but during the little time I have used your application I find myself using the "select all" function quite frequently in order to be able to rotate the entire model in the way that feels natural for me (around a central point rather than around a point that appears to lie almost outside the model.

For the same reason maybe you want to consider adding the option to be able to select a view angle in the way LDView does that so if anyone gets hopelessly lost they can quickly go to a fully aligned front, top or side view.

Anyway, rotating the whole model with regard to the grid may not be the most intelligent thing to do (which is what you do if you select a center point piece and then select all other parts and use the editing pin). Rather I'd like to (temporarily or permanently set the grid location 0,0,0 to the centre of the construction. I can do that but not very precisely and it involves dragging the whole construction to an approximate location in (at least) two steps.

BTW, ctrl+a is a standard shortcut (like ctrl+x/c/v or the ctrl+s/n which you use) which many users may expect to work because of that very reason. Assigning it to a different function might be confusing.

I hadn't realised Part Properties includes colour number. Great! Still a search by name (yellow, tan) would also be appreciated.

This is because the LDraw parts all have zero rotation, so it doesn't matter for them. But coping a selection uses the absolute placement matrix so they usually do have rotation. So when you have a brick placed at 90 degrees and copy it the paste will rotate the (90 degree rotated) brick again according to the last orientation (which could be something different if you e.g change the selection before using paste).

Let me try to find out if we are talking about the same thing here: I select a piece, hit ctrl+c then ctrl+v and the new piece does not have the rotation of the piece that was selected when I hit ctrl+v but rather the standard orientation of the piece. I did not change the selection before pasting...

Have you considered including shortcuts for moving a piece one "step" in a specific direction? In MLCad, rather than drag a piece I usually use the keyboard to change the position and angle of a piece as this is much more accurate and also faster

[Roland Melkert]

Why are you rotating that much? Once a part is placed it should rarely need to rotate again and again. Unless you are using the rotate function to change your view upon the model in order to place a next part. But you should rotate the world for this not the model it self.

Version 1.1 will have multiple views including 'ortho' this will enable you to setup your interface much like e.g. mlcad.

You are right about the expected behavior of ctrl+a, I'll add it to the next version.

I don't know how to explain better, but the current copy/paste method is as it should be. The primary goal of copy paste is the exchange of LDraw fragments between programs using the clipboard (paste in notepad for example). It would be 'unexpected' if the rotation is removed by default. The copy does exactly the same as when you copy a section from the file after it's written to disk. Also paste works as expected when you paste in a new file, it only acts 'weird' when used in combination with the 'work rotation' used in LDCad, this is the reason I added the 'ins' key behavior for copying inside the same model. All I can do is add the fore mentioned option in the next version. Alternatively you could press ctrl+home to reset the selections rotation after paste.

You can already move parts using the arrow keys, be sure the editing pin is in move mode though, otherwise the arrow keys will apply rotation.

[Jetro de Château]

I rotate so much because I am using the function in a wrong way.

My problem is the following:

I build a tower of simple 2x2 bricks. After adding about 10 it becomes difficult to place the next brick because the zoom location of the model is the base of the tower. This means that the more bricks I add the smaller I need to make the model to be able to place any bricks.

I build a line of 1x8 bricks. After I place the third it becomes hard to place more bricks. I can't zoom in on the last brick, so I try to rotate the model, but the rotation point lies at the far end of the model and the line is difficult to manage.

So I end up taking all the pieces and moving them to a different location so the tower or line rotates around their centre rather than around one of the extremes. I must be doing something wrong...

[Roland Melkert]

Once the tower gets to high for the current zoom, use the compass to move the look at point up. You do this using the arrow icons that light up green in the corners of the grid. Be sure to set the editing plane to sides or front first.

[Jetro de Château]

yep, I'm stupid
I actually used that and it works very nicely. Let's just say today I'm not at my brightest.

Thanks!

[Jetro de Château]

I had some time today to continue getting acquainted with your program and here are some more thoughts...



When I create instructions I often don't include steps from the very beginning. I build a model and then start grouping parts and add them to different steps. (How) can I move pieces to a different step? Suppose I want to divide a step in two. How do I insert a new step between existing steps and then assign which parts go in each step?

In this context I miss the ctrl+x shortcut to copy and delete a set of bricks. Maybe there could be a shortcut to past selected parts into the next step or maybe even into a submodel.



When I saved my files I couldn't find them on the disk. I saved several files in the Examples folder that comes with the program, but when I went to that folder with the Windows explorer, the files were not there. LDCad does appear to open them from that location, though. When I did a thorough search of my drive I found the file to be located at C:\Users\Jetro\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\LDCad\examples. This is not exactly a convenient location... I realise this is probably due to the fact that Windows / doesn't allow you to put any files in sensitive locations without providing admin credentials, but rather than sending the files into the unknown, maybe there could be some fail-safe that recommends/tells you to place the files somewhere else.



Have you given any thought to how you will handle unofficial parts? Maybe you can make a specific category in the main parts bin for unofficial parts. Will you make LDCad look into the "Unofficial" folder inside the LDraw folder where the official parts are located, or maybe add an option to tell the program where the unofficial parts are?



In your short tutorial on your site you mention that the program will update content only at first start and when new content has been added. On my system the program updates every time I start it, also when no changes have been made.

[Roland Melkert]

When I create instructions I often don't include steps from the very beginning. I build a model and then start grouping parts and add them to different steps. (How) can I move pieces to a different step? Suppose I want to divide a step in two. How do I insert a new step between existing steps and then assign which parts go in each step?

In the seleciton menu there is a "move to step" item. It will open a submenu you can use to move the selection to step 'x'. When you have to move a lot pinning that menu down is a time saver.

Inserting a step is not possible at the moment just appending, I just realizing this though. I will add it to next version.

When I saved my files I couldn't find them on the disk. I saved several files in the Examples folder that comes with the program, but when I went to that folder with the Windows explorer, the files were not there. LDCad does appear to open them from that location, though. When I did a thorough search of my drive I found the file to be located at C:\Users\Jetro\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\LDCad\examples. This is not exactly a convenient location... I realise this is probably due to the fact that Windows / doesn't allow you to put any files in sensitive locations without providing admin credentials, but rather than sending the files into the unknown, maybe there could be some fail-safe that recommends/tells you to place the files somewhere else.

This is weird, I've setup LDCad to only write stuff inside it's own folder (the place LDCad.exe is). Aparently Windows decided to redirect this or something or did you install into "C:\Users\Jetro\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\LDCad"? Are the example files also at that location, or is it a '2nd' examples folder? Which Windows are you using? It's best to navigate to some central ldraw model folder (e.g. in "my documents" or something) when you save a file. The last used location will be remembered.

Have you given any thought to how you will handle unofficial parts? Maybe you can make a specific category in the main parts bin for unofficial parts. Will you make LDCad look into the "Unofficial" folder inside the LDraw folder where the official parts are located, or maybe add an option to tell the program where the unofficial parts are?

You can add additional libraries using the main menu's (home icon on any menu) options. There's an item "Manage search locations".

In your short tutorial on your site you mention that the program will update content only at first start and when new content has been added. On my system the program updates every time I start it, also when no changes have been made.

This is probably the result of the installation folder not being writable, so it can't save the inventory. Did you install using the setup of archive? The setup should make the installation folder writable automatically (to compensate for the Windows not letting you write at 'sensitive' locations like you mentioned).

[Jetro de Château]

I've installed the program on two computers (desktop & laptop) but they run virtually identical systems:
Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit - service pack 1

The behaviour I have described must all be attributable to windows not allowing the program to write inside its own folders.
I used the installer (exe) to set the program up. and the behaviour occurs both in the beta and final version of LDCad.

I cannot find the menu entry you mention. Under "selection" there is no entry named "move to step" (there is no entry that begins with "move"), but I have discovered that there is a very handy "center on selection" entry!!
I've just realised I'm still using the 2nd beta on one of my machines and the "move to step" option is not there in the beta.

I realise this is a bad excuse, but had you used the "standard" menu layout (tabs at the top) I would probably have seen most of the options already. As it is I didn't see some of the entries for which I needed to scroll down. However, I believe the menu type you chose to implement may be faster to use since you never need to move the pointer to get to it.

Search locations.... perfect!
Is there a congif file hack to create your own search bins? (e.g. to create a search bin only for unofficial files)

[Roland Melkert]

I've done some checking, the whole "AppData\Local\VirtualStore" thing is a Windows 'feature' it redirects file io in order to protect the program files location. IMHO this sucks

I've designed LDCad to be portable, this totally contradicts the Windows approach (with it millions of separate folders like 'appData', 'my documents', 'users' (folders that seem to change with every windows version I might add). I thought I solved the problem with the setup by letting it change the folder permissions (it worked on vista).

These virtual redirects should be transparent, but I think it messes with the timestamps so LDCad decides to re-inventory on each start-up.

The best workaround for this whole thing is installing LDCad into a non 'system' location.


About the menu's. The main reason I choose the non standard menu's is the possibility to keep them open (pin down). In the future they will be more then just text items in some menu's. In such approach they aren't really menu's at all they're more like overlay tool panels. For example in a early version the compass was a 'menu'. But I decided to make it static later on.


The part bin content is made out of .pbg files located in the partBin folder, these represent the groups you can navigate through. there are many options associated with them, most can be learned by viewing the existing files. The search part bin group hasn't got many options currently but I might add extra 'base' filters in the 1.1 version. That version will be more 'unofficial' aware anyway.

[Travis Cobbs]

In Unix, you would never consider saving files to the /usr/local/bin/ directory, and yet for years programs in Windows did the equivalent of this by default (writing to the program's install directory). When Microsoft decided that this should be no longer possible, they created the convoluted ghost copies of all the system directories any time a non-privileged program writes to them. They were in a bind, because they couldn't do what is arguably the right thing, which is to completely disallow writing to those directories. So they went with a hack that effectively disallowed writing to the directories, while allowing old programs to function by having the files magically show up elsewhere.

Ever since Vista was released in 2006 (and possibly before that), Microsoft has instructed developers that programs should only write to the logged in user's user profile directory (C:\Users\<username> by default in Vista and Win 7, and available via the %USERPROFILE% environment variable, as well as via a Win32 function call), and never write to the Program Files or Windows directories (or sub-directories under there).

I'm not a Microsoft fan, and the whole VirtualStore thing is a royal pain (especially since Explorer doesn't show the files in the location the user thinks they should be), but in this case, at least they did it for a good reason (security). I do think they should have made Explorer show the VirtualStore files in the place the user thinks they're located (with some kind of visual effect to indicate they're actually elsewhere, perhaps).

[Roland Melkert]

Yes I know their (ms) reasoning, but the execution sucks, I mean have you seen the root of c:\ recently.

Probably the best thing to do is adjust the windows setup to install to multiple folders (like ms wants) and keep the archive standalone. Could force the behavior with a preset config or program param.

But it's not high on my must have features list

[Orion Pobursky]

I've got Ubuntu up and running in my virtual machine. I'm happy to report no issues. Not even the graphical ones I experience while running Windows in the virtual machine.

[Roland Melkert]

Good to know,

Even the linux font problems of the beta version ('lost' pixel below e.g. 's' or 'p') should be resolved with this version, can you confirm this?

Also did you get it working using hardware acceleration in the vm?

[Jason Smith]

I recently switched OS's from W7 to Ubuntu 12.04. I must say LDCad is working great so far. I'm going to dive in deep and start learning my way around but just wanted to thank you for not leaving Linux out.

Thank You.

[Roland Melkert]

Nice to hear it still works on Ubuntu 12.04, are you using a custom build of ubuntu? Cause I can't seem to find a official release of 12.04 on their site.

[Jason Smith]

Here ya go - http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/

It's the newest latest and greatest LTS build. In Beta 1 stage, Beta 2 on March 29th and Release on April 30th. LDCad works very well.

Sorry for the late reply, been busy learning this whole Linux thing. :-)

[Jason Smith]

Ubuntu 12.04 LTS is only 6 days away from being full release. I think it's safe to assume LDCad 1.0 will continue to function just nicely.

EDIT: I've noticed strange graphic issue on start up. Sometimes when starting from scratch the black editing area is smaller than the rest of the active window and the lower status bar is doubled over itself. If I "right" click on the mouse a couple times it all reverts to normal. This never used to happen but started with one of my recent updates. It doesn't usually happen if I close and immediately restart. Only after a little while of it being closed. I'll try and take a screen shot next time.

[Roland Melkert]

This sounds like the known 'reuse front buffer' issue. It's a unofficial trick I use to limit redrawing to e.g. the editing area only, but not all drivers act like expected. Turning the 'reuse front buffer' option of in the main options (or using the graphics wizard in the statusbar) should fix it.

Although if it's only noticeably during the first couple of redraws, you might want to keep it enabled in favor of the increased rendering speed. Future versions might get a better way for recycling previous renderings, but those methods require higher OpenGL versions, although that seems to become less of an issue lately as a result of better gl support.

In the other thread you wrote you're on 64 bit Ubuntu, so the 32bit binairiy works without any additional steps on that? (chroot setup for example).

[Jason Smith]

In the other thread you wrote you're on 64 bit Ubuntu, so the 32bit binairiy works without any additional steps on that? (chroot setup for example).

Yep, 32 works great. I have done no mods at all. Can't wait for it to be an integrated install. Any thoughts on using a PPA in the future?

[Roland Melkert]

I'm hoping to make some sort of installer at some point, but I must admit I have very little experience with making Linux installers/packages.

I also need to fix some windows installation stuff (splitting data and bin) which would benefit the Linux installer as well in the long run.

[Jason Smith]

I can certainly deal with it the way it is. If the Ubuntu user enters the following command into the run menu they can create a Launcher Icon for LDCad and once that is there one quickly forgets where the application is installed.

Code:

gnome-desktop-item-edit --create-new ~/Desktop

On a side note I edited some of the button images as I just wasn't able to get their meaning. Not sure if you plan on keeping the current format but this is much simpler for me to wrap my head around. Doesn't look sexy but so far it works.

[Roland Melkert]

Those pictures will probably stay for some time, cause I'm not much of an artist. But like you demonstrated the partbin is highly customizable.

Just remember to make a copy before you install a newer version, or you will end up with the originals again.

Future versions might handle custom bins during upgrades without losing user settings. But for now the default bin changes too much between releases, to bother with that, cause I'm still experimenting with it's contents.

[Jason Smith]

Okay here is my new set. A quick dirty session with Gimp. I like these much better.

[Jason Smith]

Mini Review

I must say I just love the Color Wheel and how it rotates with the mouse wheel, that is just such an easy to use feature.

I really like the 6 tabs at the top to save my parts groups although I would like maybe 10 in total.

I like the "one view does all" window. For some reason it is much easier to use than the typical MLCad and Konstruktor model with different views. If you add more views please leave this as an option.

I took a little bit to get used to moving the "World" around and specifically setting the axis to move the parts around but once I got it, I like it. I don't like however how the actions are opposite when I am moving items with the movement controls below the parts vs above the parts. They should simply go in the direction I am moving the mouse. It seems as though the controls don't know if they are upside down or not.

I really like the ability of modifying the GUI as we already discussed. I am kinda weird so it's easy for me to change things up that normally wouldn't get changed.

My only real dislike I guess is navigating the menus. I tend to get lost within and it usually takes me a bit to find what I am looking for.

I've playing between this and Konstruktor to get a feel, I keep coming back to this just cause it is so easy to use.

I have Lego Digital Designer running perfectly in Wine as well but that combo could break at any time without notice.

Anyways, if I haven't said it before, Thank You.

[Roland Melkert]

Thanks for your thoughts, I added some answers/comments below

I really like the 6 tabs at the top to save my parts groups although I would like maybe 10 in total.

I picked 6 because the average human is said to have an 6 or 7 item short term memory. It also fits nice with the bin width, but I could make it an option in future versions.

If you add more views please leave this as an option.

Splitting will be completely optional in 1.1.

I don't like however how the actions are opposite when I am moving items with the movement controls below the parts vs above the parts. They should simply go in the direction I am moving the mouse. It seems as though the controls don't know if they are upside down or not.

It took me some time to figure out what you mean but I did. The editing pin switches sides as soon it doesn't point towards the viewer. This usually also means you can't reach the 'below' of the e.g. arrows, but based on your report I discovered there is a very small angle/window where you can reach it indeed. Although this technically a bug, it was never ment to be possible in the first place, meaning when the pin is below the part the view is in such a way you will always click on the top of the controls. I will try to fix the inversion or prevent that small window from happening all together.

My only real dislike I guess is navigating the menus. I tend to get lost within and it usually takes me a bit to find what I am looking for.

I'm not totally happy with the menu's myself, if you (or anyone else) has suggestions on how to reorganize it don't hesitate to let me know your ideas.

Anyways, if I haven't said it before, Thank You.

Thanks

[Jason Smith]

It took me some time to figure out what you mean but I did. The editing pin switches sides as soon it doesn't point towards the viewer. This usually also means you can't reach the 'below' of the e.g. arrows, but based on your report I discovered there is a very small angle/window where you can reach it indeed. Although this technically a bug, it was never ment to be possible in the first place, meaning when the pin is below the part the view is in such a way you will always click on the top of the controls. I will try to fix the inversion or prevent that small window from happening all together.

I don't know what I am doing but it happens to me all the time. I guess I'm just spinning the world into awkward positions to make things happen. I like being able to use the underside of the controls as it adds so much more variability, especially when you are working in a "one" view editing window. My vote would be for the inversion to be corrected so it can be used no matter where it is and which way it is facing.

The reason I think rotate all over the place is because I find my view getting blocked by the navigation planes, curious if they could be made transparent to some degree or have an option for that.

I'm not totally happy with the menu's myself, if you (or anyone else) has suggestions on how to reorganize it don't hesitate to let me know your ideas.

- I like having a sterile work environment (editing window) without things confusing it or cluttering it.
- The current menu method is fast if you know where you are going because you don't have to take the mouse away.
- We already have a User selection environment that is separate from the editing window.

What are your thoughts on kinda going old school and simply just adding a drop down menu type system at the very top of the Parts/Color pallet space? and or maybe adding a toolbox row somewhere. I think a configurable toolbox row on the far right going top to bottom would be kinda cool and quick to access. So much of MLCad was toolboxed which made it powerful once it was personalized and learned. Finding suitable (free to use) icons to populate those tool selections may not be that easy.



I have really gotten used to using the Grid shortcut you added in the Axis control area and just love that. For things that we need to get to often I think that is an excellent area to add such shortcuts. Maybe a Save or Stepping Dialog could be added. Or maybe all the menus could be added somehow. It's nice because it's mostly all hidden unless you mouse over. Powerful, Useful and Clean looking all at the same time.

[Roland Melkert]

The reason I think rotate all over the place is because I find my view getting blocked by the navigation planes, curious if they could be made transparent to some degree or have an option for that.

You can hide/show the editing pin using the 'p' key.

What are your thoughts on kinda going old school and simply just adding a drop down menu type system at the very top of the Parts/Color pallet space? and or maybe adding a toolbox row somewhere. I think a configurable toolbox row on the far right going top to bottom would be kinda cool and quick to access. So much of MLCad was toolboxed which made it powerful once it was personalized and learned. Finding suitable (free to use) icons to populate those tool selections may not be that easy.

The icon issue is indeed the main reason I'm trying to avoid a toolbar. But it's been pointed out to me by others, so I'm considering adding a (configurable) toolbar anyway. I'm playing with the idea to add a hotspot to the editing space much like the compass at the right bottom which will show a collection of buttons only when you enter that spot with the mouse. But the associated icons/pictures will be very primitive at first (like all the other 'artwork' )

Although I must admit your idea to use the bin space for a menu/toolbar is very tempting as well, especially because it's dead space anyway during menu browsing.

I have really gotten used to using the Grid shortcut you added in the Axis control area and just love that. For things that we need to get to often I think that is an excellent area to add such shortcuts.

I was thinking to (at least) add a shortcut to the selection menu in the little coordinates panel using a tiny hot spot on it. But at the same time I already find that panel to be somewhat in the way a lot of the time (you can hide it though using 'i').

[Jason Smith]

Did a search for icons and found this site which is pretty good - http://speckyboy.com/2009/12/21/the-top-...from-2009/

This set particularly has over 500 icons within and quite a bit that would work. Might need to get creative for grid size etc but I'm sure they are out there somewhere. No need to work if you don't have to - http://led24.de/iconset/

Thanks for the "p" and "i" shortcuts, will use them for sure.

EDIT: This is the best one yet I think - http://www.defaulticon.com/

[Roland Melkert]

I've looked at icon sets before, but they usually follow some sort of a theme. And with the nature of LDraw you sooner or later need custom ones which stick out like crazy.

Although your links also contain some mono ones that could be interesting for the basic gui stuff, thanks for pointing them out.

[Travis Cobbs]

The main reason LDView's icons are so simple is because I drew most of them myself, and I definitely don't consider myself to be artistic. And you're right, if you use a third-party set, it becomes really difficult to match the style.

Also, if you want to support standard toolbars in Windows prior to Vista, all the toolbar icons have to use on/off transparency, instead of multiple levels of blended transparency like the LED icon set uses. This of course wouldn't be a problem for you, since all your UI is done in OpenGL. (At least, I assume it's all done in OpenGL.)

I do find that having the icons helps a lot, and having them be colorful also helps a lot. I'm really disappointed in Apple's recent decision to make their toolbar icons monochrome; that really cuts down on their utility, since you get used to aiming based on color, and that's just not possible with monochrom icons.

[Steffen]

by the way: I like the icons in LDView :-)))))

[Travis Cobbs]

Thanks. I'm mostly happy with them, but it's good to hear that others like them. One of the goals is that they be distinct enough not to be mistaken for each other, but at the same I also wanted to maintain consistency among them where possible. Unfortunately, these goals are somewhat at cross purposes to each other.

[Roland Melkert]

The main reason LDView's icons are so simple is because I drew most of them myself, and I definitely don't consider myself to be artistic. And you're right, if you use a third-party set, it becomes really difficult to match the style.

I guess i'm also ok with doing small 24x24 icons or so (like in ld4dstudio), but for the toolbar I'm thinking about bigger pictures are needed. For now I made the current ones (in the part bin) using a digital camera and real Lego, I'm actually kinda proud on those but people don't always get their meaning so it seems

Also, if you want to support standard toolbars in Windows prior to Vista, all the toolbar icons have to use on/off transparency, instead of multiple levels of blended transparency like the LED icon set uses. This of course wouldn't be a problem for you, since all your UI is done in OpenGL. (At least, I assume it's all done in OpenGL.)

Yes I'm doing everything in a single OpenGL context in the hopes to reduce platform dependencies and maybe a fullscreen mode some day.