973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern


973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#1
https://www.ldraw.org/parts/official-par...tid=973p8j

Willy's part is great but I think the coloring is slightly wrong.

The shirt should be white. The small neck notch in white shouldn't be white although it hard to tell what it should be.

https://rebrickable.com/parts/973pr1192c...low-hands/

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/cat...D#T=C&C=11

Thoughts?
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#2
(2020-04-30, 15:21)Orion Pobursky Wrote: The shirt should be white. The small neck notch in white shouldn't be white although it hard to tell what it should be.
I think that both should be white. But black plastic color bleeds in...
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#3
(2020-04-30, 15:29)Philippe Hurbain Wrote: I think that both should be white. But black plastic color bleeds in...

No. It looks kind of like Flesh but all the sets this torso has been used in are Town sets. The LEGO supplied render on Rebrickable has it in yellow.
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#4
(2020-04-30, 15:49)Orion Pobursky Wrote: No. It looks kind of like Flesh but all the sets this torso has been used in are Town sets. The LEGO supplied render on Rebrickable has it in yellow.

Hmm…so the LEGO render tells us what it ideally represents: a white shirt, with a patch of the underlying "skin" color showing at the top. On the other hand, the known uses of the pattern, all of which appear to be printed on black, result in a shirt that appears light blue with a patch of white (or near-white) underneath, because of the transparency of the ink.

This reminds me of the discussion about the envelope parts, where the shadow color in the pattern depends on the underlying plastic color, or at least is informed by it. Perhaps there needs to be an agreed standard for how to model this real-world property?

I think I've read that, for patterns, it's desirable to aim toward representing the real-life version as closely as practical. On the other hand, some amount of "idealization" is beneficial to account for things like printing offsets or variations in color quality. At the same time, the effect of ink transparency on an underlying base color is doubtless part of TLG's quality control process—that is, "what it looks like" is almost certainly considered in production, alongside "what it's supposed to be".

In short, is the difference between the intended color and the apparent color a feature, or a bug?
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#5
(2020-04-30, 17:14)N. W. Perry Wrote: I think I've read that, for patterns, it's desirable to aim toward representing the real-life version as closely as practical.

I disagree with this. I think we should go with the intended color, not the color as it shows on a real part. Part of the appeal of LDraw is that you can use a part in a color that has never produced in real life. Trying to deal with the slight transparency of the ink is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Actually, I don't think this is "our" problem. An intrepid developer could, in fact, have this transparency in their renderer if they wanted and us doing anything other than the intended color would mess this up.
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#6
(2020-04-30, 17:42)Orion Pobursky Wrote: I disagree with this. I think we should go with the intended color, not the color as it shows on a real part. Part of the appeal of LDraw is that you can use a part in a color that has never produced in real life. Trying to deal with the slight transparency of the ink is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Yeah, I don't remember who opined that; it was somewhere in one of the various standards/guidleines/tutorials that exist out there… Suffice to say, the principle is out there somewhere, so it's guiding at least some people.

I would add, though, that another part of the appeal of LDraw (to me, at least) is that you can replicate the part as it looks in real life. And yet another part of the appeal is that it's comprehensible and flexible enough that you could, in fact, have both. So to me, it doesn't have to be an exclusive choice—the ideal solution would be one that allows both a faithful representation of the real part, and the ability to extend the palette.

Quote:Actually, I don't think this is "our" problem. An intrepid developer could, in fact, have this transparency in their renderer if they wanted and us doing anything other than the intended color would mess this up.

Yes, something just like that is what would probably be the ultimate solution. You'd encode the pattern with the intended color (assuming you could determine it), and then somebody would add a transparency parameter that governs how that color interacts with the underlying base color. I'll let others hash out who that somebody ought to be…I know that we do have some material definitions that include parameters (like speckle and transparent parts), but I also know that many of LDraw's most powerful extensions have been those brought in by developers.
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#7
(2020-04-30, 17:42)Orion Pobursky Wrote: Actually, I don't think this is "our" problem. An intrepid developer could, in fact, have this transparency in their renderer if they wanted and us doing anything other than the intended color would mess this up.

I don't think that would be possible, due to the fact that there is nothing underneath the polygons representing patterned sections. There's no way for the renderer to know if a given polygon represents paint over top of the part's inherent color, or something else. There's also no way for it to know the opacity of the paint, which I am sure differs both based on the paint's color and based on the part's age. (I can't imagine that LEGO would avoid changing their paint formulation if they knew that a new formulation would be better. I assume that it has changed over the years.)
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#8
(2020-04-30, 19:01)Travis Cobbs Wrote: I don't think that would be possible, due to the fact that there is nothing underneath the polygons representing patterned sections. There's no way for the renderer to know if a given polygon represents paint over top of the part's inherent color, or something else. There's also no way for it to know the opacity of the paint, which I am sure differs both based on the paint's color and based on the part's age. (I can't imagine that LEGO would avoid changing their paint formulation if they knew that a new formulation would be better. I assume that it has changed over the years.)

You could probably approximate it by assuming that all non-color 16 faces were printed and then using the base color to blend. I agree that this is a problem that doesn't need to be solved, can be solved easily, or is even practicably solvable.
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#9
(2020-04-30, 19:24)Orion Pobursky Wrote: You could probably approximate it by assuming that all non-color 16 faces were printed and then using the base color to blend. I agree that this is a problem that doesn't need to be solved, can be solved easily, or is even practicably solvable.

I had many paragraphs' worth of thoughts on this, but in the end, you're right—it all comes back in the end to whether the problem needs to be solved. For those users who need parts to have the correct apparent color, it doesn't; for those who need it to have the correct intended color, it does. We have a strong guiding principle of backwards compatibility—would that allow us to un-solve the one problem in order to solve the other?

I'm not convinced the stakes are quite that high, at this point. I think the bluish color was a fair judgment call on the part of the author; it's not perfect, but it "looks right". If the part ever officially comes out in other base colors, those stakes may well be higher, and perhaps then would be a time to re-visit the question?
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RE: 973p8j - Minifig Torso with Town Vest with Pockets and Stiped Tie pattern
#10
(2020-04-30, 15:21)Orion Pobursky Wrote: https://www.ldraw.org/parts/official-par...tid=973p8j

Willy's part is great but I think the coloring is slightly wrong.

The shirt should be white. The small neck notch in white shouldn't be white although it hard to tell what it should be.

https://rebrickable.com/parts/973pr1192c...low-hands/

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/cat...D#T=C&C=11

Thoughts?

The pattern is based on this scan:

   

Hope this helps. If you wanna change it go ahead - I won't.

w.
LEGO ergo sum
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