Transparent stickers


Transparent stickers
#1
It has lately become more common with stickers printed on transparent plastic, to be placed on opaque bricks.
Is it correct, and even necessary, to always add a BFC NOCLIP in a transparent sticker, or is it incorrect to have a NOCLIP in a transparent sticker intended for a opaque brick?

We have a recent set of stickers containing a NOCLIP on the PartTracker and I don't know how to review them.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#2
(2017-06-21, 21:38)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: It has lately become more common with stickers printed on transparent plastic, to be placed on opaque bricks.
Is it correct, and even necessary, to always add a BFC NOCLIP in a transparent sticker, or is it incorrect to have a NOCLIP in a transparent sticker intended for a opaque brick?

We have a recent set of stickers containing a NOCLIP on the PartTracker and I don't know how to review them.

I was actually wondering about transparant stickers too. Exactly those stickers you mentioned as an example. Maybe a bit off-topic, but are they already transparant? I thought they weren't, but when I wanted to make the sticker transparant, I actually did not quite know how to. In the end, I just made them the color I was applying them on (in my case LBG).

Or maybe skip and remove the transparant piece of the sticker altogether and just keep the actual printed part of the sticker. For LDraw there isn't a whole lot of uses for the extra bit of transparent stickersheet right?

Btw, if you are reviewing those stickers; a, b, h and i need to be white inside the ovals instead of that lightgray; that looks much more like the real sticker. And a is missing a triangle it seems  Wink
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RE: Transparent stickers
#3
(2017-06-22, 6:21)Merlijn Wissink Wrote:
(2017-06-21, 21:38)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: It has lately become more common with stickers printed on transparent plastic, to be placed on opaque bricks.
Is it correct, and even necessary, to always add a BFC NOCLIP in a transparent sticker, or is it incorrect to have a NOCLIP in a transparent sticker intended for a opaque brick?

We have a recent set of stickers containing a NOCLIP on the PartTracker and I don't know how to review them.

I was actually wondering about transparant stickers too. Exactly those stickers you mentioned as an example. Maybe a bit off-topic, but are they already transparant? I thought they weren't, but when I wanted to make the sticker transparant, I actually did not quite know how to. In the end, I just made them the color I was applying them on (in my case LBG).

Or maybe skip and remove the transparant piece of the sticker altogether and just keep the actual printed part of the sticker. For LDraw there isn't a whole lot of uses for the extra bit of transparent stickersheet right?

Btw, if you are reviewing those stickers; a, b, h and i need to be white inside the ovals instead of that lightgray; that looks much more like the real sticker. And a is missing a triangle it seems  Wink

Correct on the mentioned issues with a,b,h,i, will have a look at that. About transparency, most of the stickers are transparent with the set I have, but maybe there are different versions?
When rendering the parts I usually replace the transparent color with the actual color of the part on which the sticker is applied to.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#5
(2017-06-22, 6:30)Evert-Jan Boer Wrote: [...]
About transparency, most of the stickers are transparent with the set I have, but maybe there are different versions?
[...]

I didn't mean the real stickers, I meant the LDraw versions. I though they weren't transparant, but Magnus' wording made me doubt that and I thought I maybe just used them wrong.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#4
(2017-06-21, 21:38)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: It has lately become more common with stickers printed on transparent plastic, to be placed on opaque bricks.
Is it correct, and even necessary, to always add a BFC NOCLIP in a transparent sticker, or is it incorrect to have a NOCLIP in a transparent sticker intended for a opaque brick?

We have a recent set of stickers containing a NOCLIP on the PartTracker and I don't know how to review them.
I wouldn't use noclip if these stickers are to be applied on opaque bricks.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#7
(2017-06-22, 7:33)Philippe Hurbain Wrote:
(2017-06-21, 21:38)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: It has lately become more common with stickers printed on transparent plastic, to be placed on opaque bricks.
Is it correct, and even necessary, to always add a BFC NOCLIP in a transparent sticker, or is it incorrect to have a NOCLIP in a transparent sticker intended for a opaque brick?

We have a recent set of stickers containing a NOCLIP on the PartTracker and I don't know how to review them.
I wouldn't use noclip if these stickers are to be applied on opaque bricks.

I think there are two ways to think about this. The first way is to make it look like the real thing. To do that, peel the sticker off the sheet and look at the back. Whatever you see there (Pure white over the printed section? The printed pattern in mirror image? Something else?) is what the part should model to match reality. If it's the printed pattern in mirror image, then noclip for the pattern geometry is the way to achieve this. If it's pure white over the printed section, then backwards-facing BFC'd white geometry would be how to achieve this (with frontwards-facing BFC'd pattern geometry). If it's something else, then that would have to be thought about too.

The other way to look at things is to consider how the sticker is going to be used. If you assume the sticker will always be applied to opaque bricks, then frontwards-facing BFC'd pattern geometry is fine, because the user will never see the back of the sticker. The problem here, is, with stickers being present in LDraw, is it right have them only look right if they're applied to opaque bricks? Are the stickers then only considered valid if used in the same way they are used in the official model?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#6
If I read the Sticker spec right the uncoloured transparent top surface on a sticker should use code 16. Not code 47, Trans_Clear.

And a "transparent" sticker intended to be placed on a opaque brick doesn't need to have a BFC NOCLIP.
But, is it incorrect to have a BFC NOCLIP in a sticker not intended for a transparent brick? Should I Hold-vote it?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#8
The transparent sticker thing has bothered me for a while :-)

Setting the colour of the part to be the colour of the brick it's being applied to only works so long as you're applying the sticker to a single part (or group of parts of the same colour).  It doesn't work so well if the sticker goes across multiple parts of different colours.

Using colour 47 doesn't really work, as it's semi-opaque and produces this result:

[Image: Untitled1.png]

I was playing around last night, and tried creating a new colour definition:

   
Code:
0 !COLOUR Trans_Sticker                                        CODE  510  VALUE #ffffff  EDGE #82566E  ALPHA 16

I then set my transparent sticker parts to this, and the model renders quite nicely:

[Image: Untitled2.png]

It's still obviously a transparent sticker and it bears some resemblance to the real-life model in that you can see the edges, but the transparency isn't so in-your-face as with colour 47 :-)

What do people think?  Useful?  Could it be added to LDConfig.ldr?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#9
Interesting idea... "official" way to do trans stickers is to use color of the underlying brick, but indeed it doesn't work well for STAMP.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#10
(2019-08-04, 12:02)Philippe Hurbain Wrote: Interesting idea... "official" way to do trans stickers is to use color of the underlying brick, but indeed it doesn't work well for STAMP.

I've always wondered about the use of colour 16 in stickers - unlike bricks, there's no such thing as a "sticker that comes in multiple colours", so I'd have thought we would want to model the sticker exactly as-is - with either colour 15 for white stickers or something like my proposed colour above for transparent ones (and other colours if/as required, of course).
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RE: Transparent stickers
#11
(2019-08-04, 12:04)Alex Taylor Wrote: I've always wondered about the use of colour 16 in stickers

The benefit of having colour 16 on the backside of the sticker is that the model builder have the choice, and can use it in any colour he/she wants. Some want it to be white, while others prefer a more "hidden" sticker and want to have the colour of the brick it is placed on.

   

Having the backside hardcoded in white would definitely trigger a lot of objections, I think.
Most of the Part+Sticker shortcuts have the sticker uncoloured. I would even say that a shortcut with a white coloured sticker should be Hold-voted. But I don't think we have that as a written rule somewhere.

I like this new, more transparent sticker colour. It gives a much more accurate rendering, even on a single coloured part. The colour of the brick should be the dominante colour, not the colour of the transparent sticker.
How would it look on a trans_clear window?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#12
(2019-08-06, 15:02)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: The benefit of having colour 16 on the backside of the sticker is that the model builder have the choice, and can use it in any colour he/she wants. Some want it to be white, while others prefer a more "hidden" sticker and want to have the colour of the brick it is placed on.



Having the backside hardcoded in white would definitely trigger a lot of objections, I think.
Most of the Part+Sticker shortcuts have the sticker uncoloured. I would even say that a shortcut with a white coloured sticker should be Hold-voted. But I don't think we have that as a written rule somewhere.

I like this new, more transparent sticker colour. It gives a much more accurate rendering, even on a single coloured part. The colour of the brick should be the dominante colour, not the colour of the transparent sticker.
How would it look on a trans_clear window?

Yeah, I figured that would probably be the reason :-)

If we don't have a rule about shortcuts then we probably should; I've submitted a number recently where I've deliberately set the colour for the sticker to 15 as that's what makes sense to me.

This is the proposed colour on a colour-47 part:

[Image: Untitled3.png]
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RE: Transparent stickers
#13
(2019-08-04, 11:54)Alex Taylor Wrote: Could it be added to LDConfig.ldr?

I added the following color to the LDCOnfig:

0 !COLOUR Trans_Sticker                                        CODE 10047 VALUE #FFFFFF  EDGE #FFFFFF  ALPHA 16
LEGO ergo sum
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RE: Transparent stickers
#14
(2019-08-07, 13:20)Willy Tschager Wrote: I added the following color to the Ldconfig

Thanks, Willy.

Three questions:
Is this colour mandatory to use on the top surface of trans sticker?

Should we recycle all stickers with colour 16 on the top surface, and change them?

Is it OK to use another colour than 16 in a sticker+part shortcut?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#16
(2019-08-07, 16:47)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Is this colour mandatory to use on the top surface of trans sticker?

No, this is just to let trans stickers look nicer.

(2019-08-07, 16:47)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Should we recycle all stickers with colour 16 on the top surface, and change them?

No, unless you give me a very good reason.

(2019-08-07, 16:47)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Is it OK to use another colour than 16 in a sticker+part shortcut?

Well, I'm not a friend of sticker+part shortcut and don't have really an opinion on it but I would say NO.

w.
LEGO ergo sum
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RE: Transparent stickers
#20
I fully agree with Willy's answers.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#21
(2019-08-07, 20:51)Philippe Hurbain Wrote: I fully agree with Willy's answers.

Ditto :-)  Given the argument advanced for why we do use colour-16, it makes sense to continue to do so.  I can set my stickers to the new colour (or white, or whatever) when I use them in a model; those who prefer to set to another colour can do that.

One point did occur, however.  This part would, if the sticker were set to colour-16, not render the sticker as it actually exists unless the door were set to white when used in a model.[url=https://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/3195c01.dat][/url]  Is this desirable?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#23
(2019-08-07, 21:16)Alex Taylor Wrote: One point did occur, however.  This part would, if the sticker were set to colour-16, not render the sticker as it actually exists unless the door were set to white when used in a model.[url=https://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/3195c01.dat][/url]  Is this desirable?
 I don't see a problem here, as this sticker came only in white. I did a lot of train stickers, and when they had an opaque background, I have it the appropriate colour

See https://www.ldraw.org/parts/official-par...d=3678ad01 where the original sticker is black as well
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RE: Transparent stickers
#24
(2019-08-07, 21:16)Alex Taylor Wrote: One point did occur, however.  This part would, if the sticker were set to colour-16, not render the sticker as it actually exists unless the door were set to white when used in a model.  Is this desirable?

Is that a print on a white paper sticker or is it a transparent sticker?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#25
(2019-08-07, 22:25)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Is that a print on a white paper sticker or is it a transparent sticker?

It's on white paper, and the spec says this should be modelled in colour-16.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#27
(2019-08-08, 6:36)Alex Taylor Wrote: It's on white paper, and the spec says this should be modelled in colour-16.

That would ban the use of colour 15 (white) on the top surface of any sticker. I don't think that is correct.

https://www.ldraw.org/article/339.html
"The sticker pattern is modelled in its true colours; they are not modifiable from the outside. All printed colours of the pattern must be matched, and the background (non-printed portion) of the pattern must use colour 16. Mimicking a colour by blending in the background colour of the part underneath using colour 16 is not allowed."


I think the word "background" here is wrong. It should maybe be "backside". The text is contradictory.

I'm reading it like this:
"All colours of the topsurface must be matched, and the backside and sides (non-printed portion) of the sticker must use colour 16. Mimicking a colour by blending in the background colour of the part underneath using colour 16 is not allowed."
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RE: Transparent stickers
#28
(2019-08-08, 7:38)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: That would ban the use of colour 15 (white) on the top surface of any sticker. I don't think that is correct.

https://www.ldraw.org/article/339.html
"The sticker pattern is modelled in its true colours; they are not modifiable from the outside. All printed colours of the pattern must be matched, and the background (non-printed portion) of the pattern must use colour 16. Mimicking a colour by blending in the background colour of the part underneath using colour 16 is not allowed."


I think the word "background" here is wrong. It should maybe be "backside". The text is contradictory.

I'm reading it like this:
"All colours of the topsurface must be matched, and the backside and sides (non-printed portion) of the sticker must use colour 16. Mimicking a colour by blending in the background colour of the part underneath using colour 16 is not allowed."

Yes, I agree - I think the unprinted areas of the sticker pattern should be modelled in white here.  Can we get a clarification/correction of the spec?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#32
(2019-08-08, 7:42)Alex Taylor Wrote: Yes, I agree - I think the unprinted areas of the sticker pattern should be modelled in white here.  Can we get a clarification/correction of the spec?

Good, but that brings us back to the transparent sticker.

In fact,
If the transparent part of the topsurface of a sticker is allowed to use colour 16, wouldn't we break this rule?
Something is wonky here. The colour 16 is both allowed and not allowed.....
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RE: Transparent stickers
#33
(2019-08-08, 13:33)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Good, but that brings us back to the transparent sticker.

In fact,
If the transparent part of the topsurface of a sticker is allowed to use colour 16, wouldn't we break this rule?
Something is wonky here. The colour 16 is both allowed and not allowed.....
I think an opaque background should be made in the color of the sheet the sticker is printed on, e.g. White in this case.
Transparent stickers shall get color 16 IMHO, because I can then choose how I want to apply it, giving it the colour of the brick it is on or if it is a STAMP (sticker across multiple parts) I can give it the new transparent colour, right?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#31
(2019-08-08, 7:38)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: https://www.ldraw.org/article/339.html
"The sticker pattern is modelled in its true colours; they are not modifiable from the outside. All printed colours of the pattern must be matched, and the background (non-printed portion) of the pattern must use colour 16. Mimicking a colour by blending in the background colour of the part underneath using colour 16 is not allowed."

I think the word "background" here is wrong. It should maybe be "backside". The text is contradictory.

I'm reading it like this:
"All colours of the topsurface must be matched, and the backside and sides (non-printed portion) of the sticker must use colour 16. Mimicking a colour by blending in the background colour of the part underneath using colour 16 is not allowed."

I'm fine with this wording.

w.
LEGO ergo sum
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RE: Transparent stickers
#36
(2019-08-08, 11:50)Willy Tschager Wrote: I'm fine with this wording.

w.

How do I bring this to the Standards Board?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#37
(2019-08-15, 19:00)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: How do I bring this to the Standards Board?

There are so many replies here, can you repost as a response to this message the exact text with the confusing wording, and your proposed new wording? I'll start a thread in the standards board forum category.

As an aside, the English word "backside" means "buttocks", which is not what you want. You can use "back side" instead. Also, "topsurface" isn't a word; use "top surface" instead.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#30
(2019-08-07, 21:16)Alex Taylor Wrote: One point did occur, however.  This part would, if the sticker were set to colour-16, not render the sticker as it actually exists unless the door were set to white when used in a model.  Is this desirable?

This is a shortcut not a sticker. Don't mismatch things. The sticker specs don't talk about color in shortcuts.

w.
LEGO ergo sum
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RE: Transparent stickers
#15
(2019-08-07, 13:20)Willy Tschager Wrote: I added the following color to the LDCOnfig:

0 !COLOUR Trans_Sticker                                        CODE 10047 VALUE #FFFFFF  EDGE #FFFFFF  ALPHA 16

Thanks!  Could it be moved to the 0-511 range, though?  MLCad (yes, I know, I know) has a problem if there are codes >511 in LDConfig: it refuses to load the entire file, and falls back to its built-in palette.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#17
(2019-08-07, 17:51)Alex Taylor Wrote: Thanks!  Could it be moved to the 0-511 range, though?  MLCad (yes, I know, I know) has a problem if there are codes >511 in LDConfig: it refuses to load the entire file, and falls back to its built-in palette.

Well we don't want the tail wagging the dog, do we?

w.
LEGO ergo sum
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RE: Transparent stickers
#18
(2019-08-07, 17:51)Alex Taylor Wrote: Thanks!  Could it be moved to the 0-511 range, though?  MLCad (yes, I know, I know) has a problem if there are codes >511 in LDConfig: it refuses to load the entire file, and falls back to its built-in palette.

No. I recommend that users switch to Bricksmith, LDCad, or LeoCAD. With all due respect for Michael and his contributions to the community, MLCad is no longer maintained and if Michael wants LDraw.org to promote he program then he can either release a new version or open source the project. We don't distribute/promote the original LDRAW.exe for similar reasons.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#19
(2019-08-07, 19:51)Orion Pobursky Wrote: No. I recommend that users switch to Bricksmith, LDCad, or LeoCAD. With all due respect for Michael and his contributions to the community, MLCad is no longer maintained and if Michael wants LDraw.org to promote he program then he can either release a new version or open source the project. We don't distribute/promote the original LDRAW.exe for similar reasons.

That's fair enough, but I have yet to find anything which actually replaces MLCad fully :-(  I'd like to abandon it but unfortunately it still offers functionality I can't get anywhere else yet.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#22
(2019-08-07, 20:12)Alex Taylor Wrote: That's fair enough, but I have yet to find anything which actually replaces MLCad fully :-(  I'd like to abandon it but unfortunately it still offers functionality I can't get anywhere else yet.
What kind of functionality is that?
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RE: Transparent stickers
#26
(2019-08-07, 22:14)Gerald Lasser Wrote: What kind of functionality is that?

The quad-view. I find many tasks much easier when I can see and edit in plan and elevation views.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#29
(2019-08-08, 6:38)Alex Taylor Wrote: The quad-view. I find many tasks much easier when I can see and edit in plan and elevation views.

View -> Editing views -> Split -> Split four ways (and switch to orthographic view in the desired pane via the compass or [v] key

[Image: screenShot02.png]
LEGO ergo sum
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RE: Transparent stickers
#34
(2019-08-07, 13:20)Willy Tschager Wrote: I added the following color to the LDCOnfig:

0 !COLOUR Trans_Sticker                                        CODE 10047 VALUE #FFFFFF  EDGE #FFFFFF  ALPHA 16

In what file is that added? I can't find it in any version, in the forum.
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RE: Transparent stickers
#35
(2019-08-10, 12:09)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: In what file is that added? I can't find it in any version, in the forum.

Sent file to Chris today.

w.
LEGO ergo sum
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