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Baseplate underdetailing was Re: LDView Bug - Printable Version

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Re: Baseplates with underdetails - Tore Eriksson - 2012-01-17

My opinion is that this calls for a special, unofficial library, just like my "Boxed" versions with simplified versions of basic parts, stored in the unofficial path <LDRAWDIR>\Parts\B
Let's say <LDRAWDIR>\Parts\G, where G stands for Geek. Wink
This will even make it possible to have both "standard LDraw" parts and extremly detailed in the same model:

0 Example
0 // Yellow Normal part
1 14 0 0 0 0 0 -1 0 1 0 1 0 0 3001.dat
0 // Red Geek part
1 4 0 -24 20 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 -1 0 G\3001.dat
0


I haven't read this thread, so pardon me if I repeat what may already be written, but I don't think basepates are exactly 4 LDU thick, so at least those extremely detailed Geek versions of baseplates should also IMO have corrected thickness.

/Tore


Re: Baseplates with underdetails - Tore Eriksson - 2012-01-17

Tore Eriksson Wrote:Let's say <LDRAWDIR>\Parts\G, where G stands for Geek. Wink
This will even make it possible to have both "standard LDraw" parts and extremly detailed in the same model:

0 Example
0 // Yellow Normal part
1 14 0 0 0 0 0 -1 0 1 0 1 0 0 3001.dat
0 // Red Geek part
1 4 0 -24 20 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 -1 0 G\3001.dat
0

/Tore

Or maybe:
<LDRAWDIR>\Parts\H, where I believe H stands for Holes, as this seems to be what has been discussed so far.

Or, even better:
<LDRAWDIR>\Parts\D, where D stands for Details.

/Tore


Re: Baseplates with underdetails - Tim Gould - 2012-01-17

I like the solution in general and I like /D best since it can be used most generically.

Tim


Re: Baseplates with underdetails - Steffen - 2012-01-18

I strongly disagree with these "geeky" "special letter folders" named
G
H
D
or whatever.
The times of DOS 8.3 are long gone, and there's no need to be so brief and cryptic here.
I also disagree with this special folder.
Instead I would favor the same technique as used currently for studs, i.e., meaning
that the baseplates refer to some special underside primitives,
and those will either be instantiated as "fully detailed" or "simplified".

Nevertheless, I would much more prefer to interrupt this discussion here
and instead devour our precious energy to the review process of the existing parts pile on the PT,
instead of making that pile explode again by adding all those refurbished baseplates to it.
The amount of work to get all that done simply frightens me currently,
and I fear that my parts, sitting for over 8 years now on the PT will _never_ make it off it :-((((


Re: Baseplates with underdetails - Orion Pobursky - 2012-01-18

Steffen Wrote:I fear that my parts, sitting for over 8 years now on the PT will _never_ make it off it :-((((

Don't worry, my oldest part from 2002! was just released last update.


Re: Baseplates with underdetails - Tore Eriksson - 2012-01-18

I mildly disagree with you, but at the same time agree.

I agree with you that these files shouldn't burden the PT. Like I already said, my general opinion is that they should be unofficial, just like my Boxed parts. But if the LDraw community decides that they should be official, I won't stand in the way - but OTOH I won't be very active to push them through the PT either. Maybe I'll supply an LDS file to help them being produced automatically if anyone asks me to. And of course I agree that it would be better to work on the already existing pile.

And no, it's not a matter of DOS 8.3. (Well, maybe 5% or less it is. At least for me.) It's about trying to keep those LDraw lines to one line when printing out the code. It's about not having to make wider and wider columns in file lists (like parts.lst for example).


Re: Baseplates with underdetails was Re: LDView Bug - Willy Tschager - 2012-01-18

Steffen Wrote:the visual gain will be there only in very special usecases,
but the work will be gigantic, and the memory impact will be big,
as well as parsing time increase, polygon count etc.

Nod.

w.


Re: Baseplates with underdetails was Re: LDView Bug - Chris Dee - 2012-01-18

I don't like the idea of unofficial libraries, since we could inadvertently break them with changes to the official library.

Currently we have three "officially supported" levels of rendering, which are only applied to studs (a high polygon count component of large models/scenes):
- regular 16-agonal stud primitives - p/stud.dat, p/studn.dat and studnn.dat
- low-res (fast-draw) octagonal stud primitives - p/stu2.dat, p/stu2n.dat and stu2nn.dat
- a zero-res (superfast-draw) primitive - p/studline.dat (although I'm not sure if any tool since ldraw.exe has supported this)

The p/4864 folder also gives LDView (at least) the ability to provide on-the-fly hi-res substitution of primitives that it recognises. This folder also serves as a primitive resource for large parts that benefit from the additional polygon count.

We could extend the "official support" for stud rendition to four levels and use this to incorporate the baseplate underside details:

- Create hi-res stud*.dat primitives in ldraw/p/4864 - these could be an official sanction of the "LEGO" logo studs.

- Define a new "studNN" for the baseplate underside dimple. In ldraw/p this would just be a 20LDu x 20LDu quad, but in ldraw/p/4864 it would be a complete modelling of the dimple. The increased polygon count of rectangles could be overcome by defining "stud groups" for the common multiples. These would just be large quads (rather than a matrix of studNN.dat) and would thus have minimal impact on polygon count at regular resolution.

This proposal does depend on implementation support in the rendering tools. So LDView, for example, would need to used stud primitives from the ldraw/p/4864, if found, rather than substituting at the 4-4cyli, 4-4disc level.

At the same time, it might be wise to straighten out the anomoly of low-res studs being identified by a naming convention by creating a ldraw/p/8 folder and moving existing stu2*.dat primitives to ldraw/p/8/stud*.dat .

Comments welcome.


Re: Baseplates with underdetails was Re: LDView Bug - Orion Pobursky - 2012-01-18

I like this idea lot. I have a few comments that I'll post later when I'm not at work but I thought it important to throw my hat into the ring now.


Re: Baseplates with underdetails was Re: LDView Bug - Travis Cobbs - 2012-01-18

I have a few comments. First of all, it's p/48, not p/64 (very minor point). A bigger point is that the baseplates with underside studs are completely differently modeled from the others since they use big polygons for their entire top and bottom surfaces (minus the rounded corners), and then just stick the studs on top of the top one. So baseplates have to have completely different versions in order for this to work. Splitting the existing baseplates over to using the updated baseplate stud dimple would introduce a huge amount of extra geometry.