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Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Printable Version

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Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Chris Dee - 2012-01-06

I understand that. However, it is still a matter of personal judgement as to which areas of the "pattern" were designed to be the colour of the one part on which it was issued. Different people will potentially have different opinions. I'd rather not have to moderate that discussion for every patterned part that gets developed. For example with the gauge pattern, someone could quite justifiably challenge that they believe that entire background was "supposed to be" black.

I moved this discussion from the Parts Tracker to this forum in the hope that we might get some input from people who have not been quite so personally involved so far (i.e. the user community, rather then the author community). I think that we are still guessing what the users real needs are, which is never a good situation for software development.


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Steffen - 2012-01-06

independently from the gauge pattern, I think that for the fire logo pattern, the situation is clear,
and we are ready to take action there: let's code the flame in red, please


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Rolf Osterthun - 2012-01-06

Hey Steffen,

Steffen Wrote:Rolf, that part that you've attached to your post has nothing to do with our discussion here:
we're not talking about parts where it is obvious that parts of the pattern need to be color 16.
we're just talking about a very small set of parts where the pattern contains portion
which only make sense in 1 specific color, like the red portion of the fire pattern.

I attached this part only to clarify my position. It was only an example to emphasize that a pattered part that does not exist in real should not be submitted to the parts tracker. And my oppinion was, that the hard coloring of the red portion of the fire pattern makes that part a custom patterned part.

Steffen Wrote:my point is that by using color 16 for the outside 4 ndis's, and hardcoded red for the flame portion,
the pattern can be used on any background color freely.
and that degree of freedom is what I want to achieve.
just versatility of our library.

At the one hand you wish to use the part in all colors with a red flame. At the other hand you refuse me to use this part for a sci-fi model. Versatility with restrictions? Please don't take the "you" personally!

Steffen Wrote:and yes, I am talking of that classic fire pattern, not some sci-fi "green flame fire pattern" etc.
just the modeling of the classic fire logo, which is the file mentioned above.
it carries no other semantics.

Looks like LEGO did not only created a "classic fire pattern". Should there be a "classic fire pattern" and a neutral "fire pattern"? There are some parts that needs the fire pattern with a hardcoded red for the flame portion (e.g. 2493c02pb01, 2494pb07, (4346p01; looks different)). This might be a basis where we could build up a definition for an acceptable exception to the convention (clear part with red flame guides to red flame even if not printed).

This is only my opinion. And my opinion is that we should keep the convention.

Rolf


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Tim Gould - 2012-01-07

Hi Rolf,

If the fire pattern had appeared on a black door what colour would the flame look like? That is the relavent question for that part. My opinion that the answer is it would have a red flame. Do you think it would have black flame or red?

If the flag piece had appeared in blue would the white patches have remained white? My opinion is no, as is yours.

For most patterns the part we code as 16 could take any value depending on what it is placed on. Here the current standard applies and is right. For a small minority of patterns (eg. the flame quite clearly and gauge arguably) it seems much more likely that the colour would have been hardcoded had the pattern appeared on a different background colour.

Tim


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Rolf Osterthun - 2012-01-07

Hey,

I am sorry but english is not my native language. So some of my statements might be confusing?

Tim Gould Wrote:If the fire pattern had appeared on a black door what colour would the flame look like? That is the relavent question for that part. My opinion that the answer is it would have a red flame. Do you think it would have black flame or red?

The fire pattern appeared on a transparent window (2494pb07). And the flame IS red. By this LEGO shows that the flame is intended to be red. For the red parts with the fire pattern they just saved the red printer color. Out of this there could be made a clear definition if a color should be hard coded or not.

When there will be such a definition, I think it is absolutely ok to color the flame red. I have changed my mind on the red flame after my research showed up the window. If I hadn't found the window, my opinion would still be that (in your example) the color of the flame should be black.

This is only one part. But there might be more and I think there should be a clear definition in the convention if a color should be hard coded or not. I do not like the idea of the "personal judgement". Not for the authors and not for the reviewers.

The next part is the part with the gauge pattern. LEGO never printed this pattern on a different color. So we do not know the intention of the designer. My oppinion is that due to this the black areas should be colored in main color.

Rolf


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Steffen - 2012-01-07

the transparent part you mentioned, 2494pb07,
http://bricks.argz.com/bricksfiles/imagecache/t128/partimg/2494pb07.png
http://www.piipoo.com/product_details.php?p=9632
uses the "fire logo shield" pattern,
http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/s/4209p70s2.dat
There, the flame is still hardcoded red, which I consider being a Good Thing ™.

I suggest to do it the same way at
http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/s/4209s01.dat


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Chris Dee - 2012-01-18

I think we have given everyone ample time to post alternative views and discussion on this topic has dried up.

In the case of the Fire Logo I agree that the strong evidence from the transparent parts is that the left-hand flame was intended to be red.

So I support a change to that subpart.

To my mind the intention for the gauge pattern is much less obvious.


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Steffen - 2012-01-18

I would like to do that change now, if you allow,
i.e., I would like to adjust
http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/s/4209s01.dat
so that its implementation becomes similar to what
http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/s/4209p70s2.dat
does.

You can have a look at
http://www.ldraw.org/cgi-bin/ptdetail.cgi?f=parts/4209p70.dat
to see how beneficial that will be.

Objections?

PS: yes, agreeeing with you Chris regarding the gauge pattern, but let us do it step by step and first fix this one where things are clear IMHO


Re: Modelling patterns that depend on the underlying part colour - Chris Dee - 2012-01-18

Agreed.