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+--- Thread: Sticker shortcut coloring (/thread-28967.html)
Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-07-28
I'd like to ressurect this discussion:
https://forums.ldraw.org/thread-28281-post-54224.html
To recap, the current practice is as follows:
- The part and the sticker should be color 16
- If the part is an assembly of a color 16 part and a transparent part and the sticker is placed on the transparent area:
- For a solid color sticker, the color will be the color of the sticker back (usually white)
- For a transparent sticker, the color will be Trans_Sticker
I'm advocating that all stickers in a sticker shortcut should be hard coded the color that they actually are.
In fact, I'm also leaning towards the notion that all sticker colors should be hard coded in the sticker itself (i.e. no color 16 boxes but white, clear, sliver, etc.). This would clear up a lot of problems but not sure we need to go that far.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-07-28
I would extend it only slightly:
- If the part is an assembly of a color 16 part and a transparent part and the sticker is placed on the transparent area:
to
- If the part is fully or partially transparent (assembly of a color 16 part and a transparent part):
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Magnus Forsberg - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-28, 17:17)Orion Pobursky Wrote: I'm advocating that all stickers in a sticker shortcut should be hard coded the color that they actually are.
In fact, I'm also leaning towards the notion that all sticker colors should be hard coded in the sticker itself (i.e. no color 16 boxes but white, clear, sliver, etc.). This would clear up a lot of problems but not sure we need to go that far.
This would be very sad to see. I don't like this.
I think most users, me included, don't want to see the border around the stickers. The stickers is a way to add a pattern to a brick and they should as much as possible blend in and disappear.
The practice, as described above, is the most userfriendly and adaptable, and should stay as is.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 7:13)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: I think most users, me included, don't want to see the border around the stickers.
Now your speaking my language. This is a strong argument for maintaining the status quo.
That being said, is the white border more noticeable on LDraw models than on real life parts?
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Chris Böhnke - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 13:38)Orion Pobursky Wrote: Now your speaking my language. This is a strong argument for maintaining the status quo.
That being said, is the white border more noticeable on LDraw models than on real life parts?
Comparison:
Real Part:
LDView:
POVRay Render:
For older parts it's somewhat similar, but I'm afraid newer ones have a much less noticable border.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Cam's Bricks - 2025-07-29
The sticker material is also physically thinner on newer stickers thus less noticeable. Are we going that far into the weeds as well with this standard?
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 17:31)Cam's Bricks Wrote: Are we going that far into the weeds as well with this standard?
Not necessarily. I'm trying to strike a balance between unambiguous rules for parts authors and user experience.
I think the argument for maintaining the status quo has been made successfully.
Therefore the rule will be:
- All stickers in a sticker shortcut will be color 16 unless the sticker is applied (in whole or in part) to a surface on the base part that is hard coded a transparent color. If the previous exception is met, the sticker will be colored the actual sticker base color (e.g. white, silver, trans_sticker, etc.).
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 17:38)Orion Pobursky Wrote: Not necessarily. I'm trying to strike a balance between unambiguous rules for parts authors and user experience.
I think the argument for maintaining the status quo has been made successfully.
Therefore the rule will be:
- All stickers in a sticker shortcut will be color 16 unless the sticker is applied (in whole or in part) to a surface on the base part that is hard coded a transparent color. If the previous exception is met, the sticker will be colored the actual sticker base color (e.g. white, silver, trans_sticker, etc.).
should it be
- All stickers in a sticker shortcut will be color 16 unless the sticker is applied (in whole or in part) to a surface on the base part that is availiable in a transparent color. If the previous exception is met, the sticker will be colored the actual sticker base color (e.g. white, silver, trans_sticker, etc.).
to include transparent (non-clear) parts like windows and windshields?
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 20:54)Rene Rechthaler Wrote: should it be
- All stickers in a sticker shortcut will be color 16 unless the sticker is applied (in whole or in part) to a surface on the base part that is availiable in a transparent color. If the previous exception is met, the sticker will be colored the actual sticker base color (e.g. white, silver, trans_sticker, etc.).
to include transparent (non-clear) parts like windows and windshields?
No.
There are 3 scenarios:
- Geometry under the sticker is entirely color 16: No problem, sticker substrate will be invisible.
- Some/All of the geometry under the sticker is hard coded a non-transparent color: No problem, sticker substrate will be (mostly) invisible.
- Some/All of the geometry under the sticker is hard coded a transparent color: Problem, sticker substrate will be visible through the transparent section so needs to be hard coded it's actual color.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 21:45)Orion Pobursky Wrote: No.
There are 3 scenarios:
- Geometry under the sticker is entirely color 16: No problem, sticker substrate will be invisible.
- Some/All of the geometry under the sticker is hard coded a non-transparent color: No problem, sticker substrate will be (mostly) invisible.
- Some/All of the geometry under the sticker is hard coded a transparent color: Problem, sticker substrate will be visible through the transparent section so needs to be hard coded it's actual color.
but the 4th case isnt rare:
- part is color 16 but will be colored (non-clear) transparent when used due to being only availiable transparent...
(are there other sticker base colors than clear foil and white paper?)
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 21:54)Rene Rechthaler Wrote: but the 4th case isnt rare:
- part is color 16 but will be colored (non-clear) transparent when used due to being only availiable transparent...
(are there other sticker base colors than clear foil and white paper?)
Why is this case different from case 1?
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-07-29
(2025-07-29, 22:01)Orion Pobursky Wrote: Why is this case different from case 1?
because if a paper sticker is on a transparent part, it will be nearly invisible from behind (paper stickers dont need NOCLIP)
and if a transparent sticker (surface also col16) is on a non-clear transparent part, it overly darkens the visibility due to the additional refractional surfaces...
this is visible especially in all stickered parts which are normally trans-brown or trans-dkblue.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-07-29
I don't like this for 2 reason:
- I see this as a renderer problem.
- The library generally doesn't care what color a part comes in. Color 16 can be any color. Having some stickers hard coded and some not subverts consistency and user expectations.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Willy Tschager - 2025-08-11
I'd like to see all stickers in a shortcut colored 16:
* With the exception that it should be white if the part has been authored on a Monday morning, between 9:32 and 10:47.
* It should be trans-sticker, in case you didn't have a cup of cappuccino and your car outside is parked on the right side of the rode.
* We should also consider to make an exception for Metallic silver in case the sticker is from a Friends set, where the dominant color is pink and contains a horse.
* Unfortunately I can't think of any more exceptions right now, but I'm sure, someone with a strong will to make the life of a reviewer even more miserable, will hop in.
w.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-09-03
This is already in the spec:
"The sticker(s) must be applied in the same location(s) as shown in the instructions for the official LEGO model from which the sticker(s) originate(s)."
This implies the sticker shortcut should be as "realistic" and "original" as possible.
But on transparent parts (and only transparent parts, but this includes clear and colored), this would result in:
- partially invisible stickers (paper stickers, who dont need BFC NOCLIP) when viewed from the inside
- overly shaded stickers (partially trans-clear stickers on not-clear parts) because renderers dont consider the minimal thickness of the sticker, only the additional faces
Therefore, I would add under "Additionally":
"Sticker(s) should be color 16 unless on a normally transparent part or section, then use the real sticker color."
this then also includes the standard sticker color and the other "hardcoded stickers on transparent section" special rule
René
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-09-03
(2025-09-03, 19:35)Rene Rechthaler Wrote: Therefore, I would add under "Additionally":
"Sticker(s) should be color 16 unless on a normally transparent part or section, then use the real sticker color."
this then also includes the standard sticker color and the other "hardcoded stickers on transparent section" special rule
René
There are numerous examples of transparent parts that were previously only available in solid colors. This means we have to predict the future or be forced to recycle parts.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-09-03
(2025-09-03, 20:36)Orion Pobursky Wrote: There are numerous examples of transparent parts that were previously only available in solid colors. This means we have to predict the future or be forced to recycle parts.
no, I only meant exclusively sticker shortcuts of transparent parts, these are quite unique... (unlikely to be recycled as solid base with the same sticker again)
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-09-03
How is a reviewer supposed to know that that particular part is transparent without wasting a bunch of time pulling the instructions and checking? This problem become even more pronounced on older sets.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Magnus Forsberg - 2025-09-03
Move on, Rene
The train has left the station, and Elvis has left the building. A decision is made.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-09-03
(2025-09-03, 20:57)Orion Pobursky Wrote: How is a reviewer supposed to know that that particular part is transparent without wasting a bunch of time pulling the instructions and checking? This problem become even more pronounced on older sets.
BL has most sticker shortcuts, so its one click... (if in the keywords)
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Rene Rechthaler - 2025-09-03
(2025-09-03, 21:42)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Move on, Rene
The train has left the station, and Elvis has left the building. A decision is made.
A train which has left the station is going somewhere else...
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-09-03
While I'm mildly annoyed that this debate didn't happen earlier, I'm always willing to have a discussion with the understanding that the current rules will remain in effect until officially changed by the Admin.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Orion Pobursky - 2025-09-03
Here's some test code:
Code:
0 FILE main.ldr
1 46 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 18972dy6-norm.dat
1 46 -100 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 18972dy6-a.dat
1 46 100 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 18972dy6-b.dat
0 FILE 18972dy6-norm.dat
1 16 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 18972.dat
1 16 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 6253679oc01.dat
1 16 -40 17.5 -11 0 1 0 0 0 -1 -1 0 0 6253811z.dat
1 16 40 17.5 -11 0 -1 0 0 0 -1 1 0 0 6253811aa.dat
0 FILE 18972dy6-a.dat
1 16 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 18972.dat
1 10047 -40 17.5 -11 0 1 0 0 0 -1 -1 0 0 6253811z.dat
1 10047 40 17.5 -11 0 -1 0 0 0 -1 1 0 0 6253811aa.dat
1 16 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 6253679oc01.dat
0 FILE 18972dy6-b.dat
1 16 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 18972.dat
1 10047 -40 17.5 -11 0 1 0 0 0 -1 -1 0 0 6253811z.dat
1 10047 40 17.5 -11 0 -1 0 0 0 -1 1 0 0 6253811aa.dat
1 15 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 6253679oc01.datCenter is the a shortcut with the current rules, all color 16
Left (-X) is the shortcut with the side stickers colored Trans_Sticker and the front one (which doesn't have BFC NOCLIP) color 16
Right (+X) is all the stickers have a defined color, in this case Trans_Sticker and White
I loaded into the model viewer and I'm not seeing any appreciable difference with the exception that the graphic on the front sticker is visible through the inside of the base part. I don't think that this is a large enough issue to warrant complicating the rules.
EDIT: Now that I'm home, I queued this up to LDView. None of the samples renders perfect and snapshot saving has artifacts.
RE: Sticker shortcut coloring - Vincent Messenet - 2025-09-04
I tried the same file with Studio renderer with Very high render quality and here as well the difference is subtle. I had to reduce the resolution of the file and zip it to share it here.
So yes the current rule is simpler and enough for the majority of users expectations