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Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Printable Version

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Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Gerald Lasser - 2024-09-09

I thouched an oldtimer again, and well, it turned out to be a more intricate topic agian to make these part fit and update them to their real geometry and assembly.

The input comes from BL, RB and my own parts, it is noteworthy to say that there are cannons existing, that are not listed as RB or BL.

CANNONs:
1st Gen: 32074c01, round front cover, long trigger
2nd Gen: 57796, round front cover with flat bottom, long trigger
3rd Gen: 57796, round front cover with flat bottom, smaller trigger

-> RB and BL do not diffferentiate between 2nd and 3rd Gen although RB useds pictures of both, listing them as one.
-> the 2nd Gen trigger axle does not fit into the technic grid vertically
-> an arrow in a 2nd and 3rd Gen cannon does not fit the technic grid vertically.

AMMO:
- 32133a (BL) / 76110 (LDraw) Arrow with Round rubber tip and Liftarm shaft
- 32133bc01 (BL) / n.a. (LDraw) Arrow with Round rubber tip and solid shaft
- 32133bc02 (BL) / n.a. (LDraw) Arrow with Galidor Shield tip and solid shaft
- 57028 Open Rubber End and Liftarm Shaft


To dos will follow:
- Update details of the arrows
- common subfile for 57028 and 76110
- Change the cutout at the this common subfile (this affects geometry of official files)
- Add a grove to 57029
- move the axle in the trigger to fit into the grid
-  Fix the cover and clips for the 1st Gen cannon

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Rene Rechthaler - 2024-09-09

i also have few of these parts and can add:
-32133 misses the internal dome (i have an arrow without the rubber tip, you can see a dome (D12,8mm)
-32134 misses the cavity for said dome (the cavity has to be bigger to allow bouncing, the tip can be pressed)
-32080 has a hole through
-the common shaft has to end at the last hole (from tip to that last hole is different)
-"relaxed" still means trigger is unrotated
-my flat bottom cannon 57029 says © 2005 but BL says that cannon was used from 2006 onwards

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Jeff Jones - 2024-09-09

gerald since you mentioned the galidor arrows i have made this in blender,     well the width and depth of the indets are probably not accruate

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Magnus Forsberg - 2024-09-10

I want to restructure the cannon with rounded bottom.

   

I think we now have a good structure on the flat version.

But:
  • 57029 and 57759 should use Bottom not Base.
  • I want to remove with Trigger from the assemblies.
  • And the paranthesis (with/without an Arrow). Wouldn't "Unloaded" / "Loaded" be enough?
  • I want to renumber 76100c01 to 76100c02. That would make it similar to 57796c02
  • Then I want to renumber 76100-f1 to 76100c01.
  • 32074c01 need to be a ~Move to 76100c01
  • This would make 76100-f2 unnecessary.
  • What name should we use on the parts?  Body/Lid ? Barrel/Front Cover?
  • 32074c02 should be used in the 76100 assemblies.
  • The spring should be added in the 76100 assemblies
  • What number should be used on the assy of 57796 with Long/Short trigger? a/b-version  or continue to c03/c04?
  • But it might be necessary to use Short/Long Trigger in the descriptions?
  • Should Competition stay in the description?

I can do all the steps described above.
When would it be ok to make these changes? Before or after Gerald is done with the geometry correction?

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Rene Rechthaler - 2024-09-10

I think the geometry should get done first...
How important is it to also correct the arrows?
are the color-mixed versions missing in your diagram?

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Jeff Jones - 2024-09-10

(2024-09-09, 22:19)Jeff Jones Wrote: gerald since you mentioned the galidor arrows i have made this in blender, well the width and depth of the indets are probably not accruate

heres the dat for it warning its very poopoo caca and not good
.dat   out of scale very poopoo caca galidor shaft o algo.dat (Size: 137.02 KB / Downloads: 2)

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Rene Rechthaler - 2024-09-11

Gerald has improved the round arrow that much that I think the old files should get obsoleted...
The new files can then get rotated to match the new arrow (that one also got rotated).
That means the tip to the front and the liftarm end upright (holes sideways).

Edit: "- Add a grove to 57029"
-> found one more (have V2 and V3 now): the V3 groove at the bottom of the half base liftarm is continuous, the V2 stops at the last crossaxle under the trigger...
(the V2 are 57029-01 and V3 has 57029-02 marked)

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Gerald Lasser - 2024-09-11

Good thing is, that the official parts are limited and most of them are unofficial.
  • 57029 and 57759 should use Bottom not Base.
    -> That's fine with me

  • I want to remove with Trigger from the assemblies.
    -> Shall we keep a 57029c01/c02? I do not really see a benefitfor them. The only thing is, that you can faily easily remove the  trigger, that would speak for the 57029c01 combination.
    If we remove these we can get rid of the "trigger" 
    If we keep these parts then, maybe, use "without trigger" in those files.
    -> Q: There is nothing comparable with the 32074 as base?

  • And the paranthesis (with/without an Arrow). Wouldn't "Unloaded" / "Loaded" be enough?
    -> Loaded/Unloaded is enough imho.

  • I want to renumber 76100c01 to 76100c02. That would make it similar to 57796c02
    -> I see that you already started to renumber them.
    -> In any case the numbering shall correspond, i.e. c01 "unloaded", c02 "loaded"

  • Then I want to renumber 76100-f1 to 76100c01. -> fine
  • 32074c01 need to be a ~Move to 76100c01  -> fine
  • This would make 76100-f2 unnecessary. -> fine
  • What name should we use on the parts?  Body/Lid ? Barrel/Front Cover?
    -> Cover/Lid I am fine with both

  • 32074c02 should be used in the 76100 assemblies.
    -> Q: Similar to the 57029c01/c02?

  • The spring should be added in the 76100 assemblies -> fine

  • What number should be used on the assy of 57796 with Long/Short trigger? a/b-version  or continue to c03/c04?
    -> The long/short trigger assembly also has a different base, so an a/b version might be better IMHO

  • But it might be necessary to use Short/Long Trigger in the descriptions?
    -> Definately, as this has a big impact on the geometry, unfortunately no inventory site does cater for this difference.

  • Should Competition stay in the description?
    -> it is a nice way to find all the related parts now :-)

Concerning different colours in the trigger, front lid etc. I would not add them, users can re-organise the parts in LDCad and colour them to their wishes.

Concerning the arrow rework, @Rene
-> IMHO there is no need to obsolete the official files, even if the orientation of the single parts is completely mad. The overall length and position of the parts in the assemblies and the assembly direct is ok
-> The only change is the 1 LDU move of the face that holds the arrow at the trigger.

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Magnus Forsberg - 2024-09-12

I want to remove with Trigger from the assemblies.
-> Shall we keep a 57029c01/c02? I do not really see a benefitfor them. The only thing is, that you can faily easily remove the  trigger, that would speak for the 57029c01 combination.
If we remove these we can get rid of the "trigger" 
If we keep these parts then, maybe, use "without trigger" in those files.
-> Q: There is nothing comparable with the 32074 as base?

32074c02 should be used in the 76100 assemblies.
-> Q: Similar to the 57029c01/c02?

The 2 assemblies 32074c02  and  57029c01 are needed in the translation to/from LDD.
57029c02 should be deleted. Not needed.
32047c01 can't be used, since it was incorrectly used.

What name should we use on the parts?  Body/Lid ? Barrel/Front Cover?
-> Cover/Lid I am fine with both
Body or Barrel?    I prefer Body/Lid

What number should be used on the assy of 57796 with Long/Short trigger? a/b-version  or continue to c03/c04?
-> The long/short trigger assembly also has a different base, so an a/b version might be better IMHO
I agree on the use of a/b version

But it might be necessary to use Short/Long Trigger in the descriptions?
-> Definately, as this has a big impact on the geometry, unfortunately no inventory site does cater for this difference.
It looks like there is a collision between the long trigger and the round body in 76100c01/c02

Concerning different colours in the trigger, front lid etc. I would not add them, users can re-organise the parts in LDCad and colour them to their wishes.
Maybe we should change to an uncoloured arrow?  Is it missing in the library?

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Gerald Lasser - 2024-09-13

Magnus Forsberg: I want to remove with Trigger from the assemblies.
-> Shall we keep a 57029c01/c02? I do not really see a benefitfor them. The only thing is, that you can faily easily remove the  trigger, that would speak for the 57029c01 combination.
If we remove these we can get rid of the "trigger" 
If we keep these parts then, maybe, use "without trigger" in those files.
-> Q: There is nothing comparable with the 32074 as base?

32074c02 should be used in the 76100 assemblies.
-> Q: Similar to the 57029c01/c02?

The 2 assemblies 32074c02  and  57029c01 are needed in the translation to/from LDD.
57029c02 should be deleted. Not needed.
32047c01 can't be used, since it was incorrectly used.

What name should we use on the parts?  Body/Lid ? Barrel/Front Cover?
-> Cover/Lid I am fine with both
Body or Barrel?    I prefer Body/Lid  <- OK
 

What number should be used on the assy of 57796 with Long/Short trigger? a/b-version  or continue to c03/c04?
-> The long/short trigger assembly also has a different base, so an a/b version might be better IMHO
I agree on the use of a/b version
-> OK, as they were never official, so we are good

But it might be necessary to use Short/Long Trigger in the descriptions?
-> Definately, as this has a big impact on the geometry, unfortunately no inventory site does cater for this difference.
It looks like there is a collision between the long trigger and the round body in 76100c01/c02
-> This is corrected

Concerning different colours in the trigger, front lid etc. I would not add them, users can re-organise the parts in LDCad and colour them to their wishes.
Maybe we should change to an uncoloured arrow?  Is it missing in the library?
-> The plain colour 16 Arrow is missing, I'll add it

We might need to adapt the compressed spring, as the arrow is moved a bit

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Magnus Forsberg - 2024-09-14

Should we hide the loose trigger and the body assemblies, using tilde ~  ?
Now the body assy is visible, and the trigger, spring and body parts are hidden.

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Magnus Forsberg - 2024-09-14

(2024-09-13, 16:42)Gerald Lasser Wrote:
We might need to adapt the compressed spring, as the arrow is moved a bit

Long time since I used MLCad's spring generator.
What would be the correct/wanted length?

edit:
Since you moved the arrow 1 ldu, I'll make the spring 1 ldu shorter.

RE: Reworking the Competition Cannon/Arrow Combos - Gerald Lasser - 2024-09-14

(2024-09-14, 15:13)Magnus Forsberg Wrote: Should we hide the loose trigger and the body assemblies, using tilde ~  ?
Now the body assy is visible, and the trigger, spring and body parts are hidden.

Yes, we should.