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Full Version: Suggestions for a change of the sticker specs
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Hej,
as there was upcoming discussion about our sticker specs in this thread: [http://forums.ldraw.org/showthread.php?t...16581]Link to the original discussion[/url], I feel, that this topic needs an own thread. So here it is.

Here is a short summary of the content:
a) There was a discussion about conditional lines (condlines) for formed Stickers.
Actually our spec is a bit unclear about handling condlines. They are not forbidden like edges are, but it is not allowed to use colour 24 in a sticker.
Magnus Forsberg requested to change the specs in a way that condlines could be used for bent/formed stickers. Furthermore he asked for handling condlines in general:
Magnus Forsberg Wrote:And how about divided cond-lines along a straight ridge? A minifig head, for instance.
Many short cond-lines gives a better rendering, than one long cond-line across many vertices.

b) The second discussion was about the origin of formed stickers.
Magnus Forsberg Wrote:Is it ok to place a sticker so that it is easy to place it on its brick, as long as it has (Formed) at the end of the description?
Even if it is a flat sticker?
Gerald Lasser Wrote:Does it make sense to have a formed sticker standalone in the library? If the sticker is formed (bent) then there is pretty much only one place where it can fit, on the part it was supposed to go. In my view a Part+ Formed Sticker combination would be enough.
Either this way or e.g. If it is a sticker is a stand-alone part, e.g. for the curved Wedge, it would make sense to have the sticker in its proper position when the co-ordinates of (the formed) sticker and the parts are the same.

If the sticker is just rotated, i.e. a sticker on a slope, the (relative) position for the part where it is supposed to go could be in the helpline. E.g. the Stickers for the 45° Slopes could then just be rotated 45° and positioned . In this case especially easy as all the center coordinates are full LDU values (0 10 -20)
Max Martin Richter Wrote:About the formed versions: I would like to see, if we can find an agreement, that the formed (bent not rotated) sticker is using the base coordinates of the brick, where it will be applied. (Or a moved centre coordinate if it is not applied on brick's centre.)

c) The last fact is how we handle stickers which needs to be formed. Create just the formed version or the flat and formed verision?
Magnus Forsberg Wrote:I have looked at many of complete sticker sets we have in the library.
Many of them have 1 or 2 formed stickers, but no flat version of that particular sticker.
Look at 4544258 for instance. We have all the sticker needed for that set, but no flat version of the formed f and g sticker. Why?
Must there allways be a flat versions of a formed stickers?
Gerald Lasser Wrote:I don't think the flat version shall be mandatory. Usually the flat version is where you (at least I) start from when designing a new one, so uploading it would not be too much of a hassle then. You then have the possibility to use it on other places as well.
Max Martin Richter Wrote:About the flat stickers: I would prefer, that we have a flat version of each sticker in our library. (Who tells, that nobody wants to use such a sticker on a MOC?)


Please feel free to discuss this further.

/Max
a) Agree for condlines on sticker top. I don't think Magnus suggestion is a good one since smoothing using condlines as trigger is somehow LDView specific (eg. LDCad doesn't need that). This also would pull out a can of worm: which color should have condlines?

b) I like Gerard suggestion (only part + sticker shortcut) to avoid clutter. But for optimum flexibility I would nonetheless suggest to keep separated formed sticker as a ~part, with origin and orientation matching part).

c) Suggest but not force flat stickers.
To refine it a bit more:


a-1: Cond-Lines An The Top Of Stickers

a-2: Cond-Lines At The Sides of Stickers (e.g. rounded corners, round stickers)
- I would say yes to this requirement, it looks like also POV-Ray makes use of them as Christophe wrote.
- It also makes the Sticker look better when primitve substitution is done,
- I also would vote for a mandatory use of the 4-4ering in rounded stickers to avoid gaps when prim-subst is done

b-1: Origin of Formed/Rotated Stickers:
- Having the origin of the sticker the same as the part where it is supposed to go is definitely a PRO for me.

b-2: Formed/Rotated Stickers Separately In The Library:
- having the sticker as a "~part" is a good idea.


c-1: Have Formed Stickers Also Present As Flat Versions:
- As a suggestion, yes.
- Also, as part of my personal workflow I will have a flat version in any case.
my opinion:

a: Cond-Lines for Stickers
Allowing cond-lines (be it at bent surfaces or round corners) will create an inconsistency with the current
spec that stickers have no edge lines at all. However, that inconsistency wouldn't hurt me much.
However, we should mention it in the spec and that it is by intention, not by accident.

a-1: Cond-Lines An The Top Of Stickers
To me, this only makes sense on formed stickers with a non-flat surface.
On a flat surface, these condlines make no sense.

a-2: Cond-Lines At The Sides of Stickers (e.g. rounded corners, round stickers)
If issue a is resolved, then I'm fine with this because of the advantages mentioned above.

b-1: Origin of Formed/Rotated Stickers:
Origin of the sticker = part where it is supposed to go = I fully agree

b-2: Formed/Rotated Stickers Separately In The Library:
sticker as a "~part" = I agree

c-1: Have Formed Stickers Also Present As Flat Versions:
IMHO we should leave it to the freedom of part authors whether they want to create a flat or bent version of a sticker.
We already have the same with parts. Nobody should be forced like "thanks, you now have created the bent sticker,
but we won't release it until you also create the flat version". That would be de-motivating. The same vice versa.
We should be happy and thankful for everybody who creates a part file for us. Be it a flat, or a bent sticker.
However, yes, in the optimal case both versions get created at the same time each time.
I agree with Steffen, with the addition to b-2: Formed/Rotated Stickers Separately In The Library it is recommended that a ....dnn part with the sticker applied should be submitted.
yes, now it's up to me to agree with this again.
the ...dxx shortcuts - for a library user - play the same role as a patterned part.
from a builder's perspective, it is not important if something was printed onto a brick or sticked.
and, when you are a kid, you usually do not remove these stickers frequently, so they "feel" like patterned usually.
these are the reasons why I really like the ...dxx shortcuts in our library.
a
I never intended to ask for many short cond-lines.
I wanted to clarify how a cond-line along a fold-line should be made. One single line.
Philo's Edger2 can't create that line. How about LPE?

a-1
Yes. This was the main question. I want (a) cond-line on the top surface.

a-2
Yes. This would mean that we should add cond-lines, but not edge-lines, to the affected primitives 1-4cylc2.dat, 4-4cylc2.dat and 48/4-4cyls2.dat, but how about the cyli2-primitive. It would become obsolete.
Yes. The 4-4ering should be mandatory.

b-1
Yes. Formed stickers should have the same origin as the brick it is intended for.
But my question was about flat stickers. Is it accepted to have a flat sticker in a rotated position in a ....c01.dat file, if the word 'formed' is added, within brackets, to the description?
I would say No to that. A flat sticker should have its origin in the center of the pattern, at y=0.

b-2
No. I don't want hidden stickers. A search for "sticker" in LDFind will miss the ~Sticker, unless I add a * infront of the word.
I find it odd that LDCad use the word "sticker" for some of the printed parts.
And how do I find a minifig torso with sticker in LDCad?

c-1
The flat version of a formed sticker is wanted, but not mandatory.
If we decide to have the formed sticker hidden, with a ~, then the part+sticker shortcuts must be mandatory.
Bricks with a printed pattern have the word "Pattern" at the very end of the description.
How about the word "Sticker"? Where should it be?

We have at the PT this set of shortcuts
They all have a description like this:
"Brick X x Z [qualifier] with Sticker Z x X [qualifier], or likewise. The full description of the brick + full description of the sticker.

I scanned the current library and found this.
The word Sticker is placed differently in all the files we have, but most often at the end of the description. The dimension of the sticker is never mentioned in any of the shortcuts.

I would say that the dimension of the sticker is not needed in a shortcut description, and that the word Sticker should be placed at the end of it.
Magnus Forsberg Wrote:I would say that the dimension of the sticker is not needed in a shortcut description, and that the word Sticker should be placed at the end of it.

I agree. There would need to be a little re-work in the official library.
It seems like there is consensus here. Chris, would you like to start an LSB thread with the proposed changes? (I think you're the only one on the LSB who has commented on this thread before this post.)
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